Looking for a little help diagnosing a no spark issue..

[PaulF87]

Hey guys,

So I went out for a ride last night, the bike started second kick and ran fine. I made it about ten miles from home, made a left turn, got on it and the bike just flat out died after I shifted into 3rd. I pulled over to the side of the road and kicked and kicked and kicked but it would not restart. After almost an hour of checking connections, for fuel, etc I gave up and called for a flatbed. After I got home I tried some more to start it with no luck. I ohm'd out the coil on the bike, which is a 17-6903 by the way. I got readings of 2.2 ohms on the primary terminals and 15k from one plug terminal to the next.

I emailed Pete from pamco today because I was curious if the 2.2 ohms was a little outside the useable operation range of the pamco system that I have on the bike which is an ultimate kit with e-advance by the way with a PMA and no battery.

When I got home from work I went out and wired up a test light on the primary terminals to confirm I had power to the coil, which I did. I had a friend hold the plug to the head while I kicked and I had a nice blue/white spark. The bike actually almost started so I slapped the plug back in and it started first kick.... I hadn't changed anything at all...

I took the bike out for a spin, making sure to stay extremely close to home. It ran like a champ and I probably put ten miles on it running laps around the neighborhood. I pulled out onto a busier road and got on it, probably 90% percent throttle and as soon as I shifted to third it died and wouldn't restart! I pulled into my neighborhood and pulled it into the garage. Ohm'd out the coil, same readings as yesterday, this morning and tonight yet when I pulled the plug out again to check for spark, I had nothing!?!

What am I missing here? Is this a PMA issue or a pamco issue? I searched and found some similar posts on these boards but couldn't find a whole lot of resolutions.

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[gggGary]

No battery......... I'll vote for high voltage taking out the Pamco. some abused component "came back" when it cooled off would be interesting to see if it "comes back" again. How good are your grounds? you need ground wires connecting battery, frame, and engine. Engine mounts are not good enough grounds. A poor ground can fool the voltage regulator into allowing excessive voltage into the system, result: fried electronics.
My clue is you were revving the engine both times it died, high RPM allows the PMA to put out higher voltage that wasn't absorbed by lighting and ignition loads.

 

[chizler62]

Don't shift it into third! LOL

Where's the advance unit installed? I played with one that didn't like certain places.

Do you have original mechanical advance? Perhaps reinstall that.

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[PaulF87]

No battery......... I'll vote for high voltage taking out the Pamco. some abused component "came back" when it cooled off would be interesting to see if it "comes back" again. How good are your grounds? you need ground wires connecting battery, frame, and engine. Engine mounts are not good enough grounds. A poor ground can fool the voltage regulator into allowing excessive voltage into the system, result: fried electronics.
My clue is you were revving the engine both times it died, high RPM allows the PMA to put out higher voltage that wasn't absorbed by lighting and ignition loads.

I was thinking the same thing, I would think the capacitor would prevent a voltage spike though, no?

My grounds are on the engine mounts, where do you suggest relocating them to?

I'm gonna see if it kicks tomorrow and if so, I'm gonna ride it to work, which is only 5 miles.

Don't shift it into third! LOL

Where's the advance unit installed? I played with one that didn't like certain places.

Do you have original mechanical advance? Perhaps reinstall that.

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If only it were that easy, lol.

The advance unit is under the tank... It's solid state though so I kinda feel like it shouldn't matter where it is located but correct me if I'm wrong about that?

I do not have the original mechanical advance though so I cannot throw that back on to test it out.

 

[pamcopete]

The E-Advancer has a built in voltage regulator with a maximum input rating of 30 Volts. The Hall effect sensor is also rated to 30 Volts. PMA's can produce as high as 20+ Volts, but not likely that it will go to 30 without frying something like the lights.

I have seen some reports of PMA's producing a lower Voltage with higher RPM's, most likely due to the PMA regulator not able to handle the higher current as the regulator is a shunt type that simply grounds the excess current which can cause the regulator to overheat, so in your case it could be an overheated regulator that comes back if you allow it to cool off.

1.The E-Advancer sensor plate does not have the ability to drive the coil, so you cannot substitute a mechanical advancer for the E-Advancer .

2. The E-Advancer should not be installed near the coil or on top of the engine. The recommended location is either under the seat or under the left side air filter cover. (Installation: step 3)

3. I would suggest that you rig up a voltmeter so you can see the battery or capacitor voltage while riding. Perhaps Velcro the meter to the tank temporarily.

4. Alternatively, you could disconnect the PMA / regulator and just run on the battery, if you have one. If not, then temporarily install a battery to power the ignition and see if the failure occurs.

5. Check the location of your PMA regulator as it must be located where it can get lots of cooling air because it is a shunt type regulator and the faster you go, the hotter the regulator gets.

 

[PaulF87]

The E-Advancer has a built in voltage regulator with a maximum input rating of 30 Volts. The Hall effect sensor is also rated to 30 Volts. PMA's can produce as high as 20+ Volts, but not likely that it will go to 30 without frying something like the lights.

I have seen some reports of PMA's producing a lower Voltage with higher RPM's, most likely due to the PMA regulator not able to handle the higher current as the regulator is a shunt type that simply grounds the excess current which can cause the regulator to overheat, so in your case it could be an overheated regulator that comes back if you allow it to cool off.

1.The E-Advancer sensor plate does not have the ability to drive the coil, so you cannot substitute a mechanical advancer for the E-Advancer .

2. The E-Advancer should not be installed near the coil or on top of the engine. The recommended location is either under the seat or under the left side air filter cover. (Installation: step 3)

3. I would suggest that you rig up a voltmeter so you can see the battery or capacitor voltage while riding. Perhaps Velcro the meter to the tank temporarily.

4. Alternatively, you could disconnect the PMA / regulator and just run on the battery, if you have one. If not, then temporarily install a battery to power the ignition and see if the failure occurs.

5. Check the location of your PMA regulator as it must be located where it can get lots of cooling air because it is a shunt type regulator and the faster you go, the hotter the regulator gets.

Thanks for the info Pete, The bike came with the Pamco kit on it so obviously the PO didn't follow your instructions. I'll pull the tank and relocate it to a more suitable spot.

The regulator is located fairly close to my coil and it theoretically should be getting ample airflow to cool it off. Any way to bench test it by chance?

 

[pamcopete]

Paulf87,

Not without a whole bunch of equipment. The simplest is to somehow attach a voltmeter to you bike and go for a ride. Do you have a battery or a capacitor?

 

[PaulF87]

Paulf87,

Not without a whole bunch of equipment. The simplest is to somehow attach a voltmeter to you bike and go for a ride. Do you have a battery or a capacitor?

I have a capacitor wired into the bike now. If I could mount a battery in the bike and disconnect the PMA I would but it would be really diffcult.

 

[pamcopete]

PaulF87,

Well, you have to do something to separate the PMA from the ignition to see where the problem is. Either a voltmeter to see the capacitor voltage when riding or run the ignition off a battery. You don't need thick cables for the battery if you are going to kick start it. Just 16 gauge wire will work. If you have a sealed battery then it also doesn't matter if it mounted properly or not.

 

[chizler62]

The regulator is located fairly close to my coil and it theoretically should be getting ample airflow to cool it off. Any way to bench test it by chance?

By regulator do you mean?
Voltage reg/rec with the three wires from stator with fins on it?
or
the blue advance box?

I had mounting issues with the advance unit being too close to RF, plug wires, coil area.

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[pamcopete]

By regulator do you mean?
Voltage reg/rec with the three wires from stator with fins on it?
or
the blue advance box?

I had mounting issues with the advance unit being too close to RF, plug wires, coil area.

Posted via Mobile

Wait...wait...do I understand you correctly chizler? You have a PAMCO installed in your bike? Huh?

 

[gggGary]

 

[PaulF87]

PaulF87,

Well, you have to do something to separate the PMA from the ignition to see where the problem is. Either a voltmeter to see the capacitor voltage when riding or run the ignition off a battery. You don't need thick cables for the battery if you are going to kick start it. Just 16 gauge wire will work. If you have a sealed battery then it also doesn't matter if it mounted properly or not.

I'm gonna run wires from the battery on the harley in the garage tomorrow to the pamco system. Is it a bad idea to run leads directly from the battery to the power wire to the pamco? I wasn't sure if the amperage directly off the battery would be too much for the system

By regulator do you mean?
Voltage reg/rec with the three wires from stator with fins on it?
or
the blue advance box?

I had mounting issues with the advance unit being too close to RF, plug wires, coil area.

Posted via Mobile

The voltage regulator/rectifier. I hooked my multimeter to the power wires out of the PMA and it appears to generate voltage when kicked..

The advance unit was zip tied onto the top tube, under the tank. I messed around with various locations, can't seem to find a better spot besides behind the neck tube gussets but that is still fairly close to the coil. Where do you have yours located?