Miss November XS2 tribute

Thank you all for your attention to this problem. All your suggestions, helpful, humorous or otherwise, are appreciated.

I still find it hard to believe that a normal operation such as fitting a new camchain requires such force.

The other day, I was able to join the chain, but only with the bearings removed from one end of the camshaft. Using brute force to try and lift the camshaft up sufficient to refit the bearings a) proved difficult or impossible and b) felt completely wrong thing to do. Lifting with a Z1 fork tube, I applied enough force to start bending an 11 mm steel bar, selected because it's a fairly snug fit inside the camshaft. I was worried that I might damage something expensive.

Last night when I should have been sleeping I was devising ways to apply more stretching force to the chain.

How close to getting it on do you think it is?

When I did mine I could not pull it on by hand. That's why I used the T-Handle Allen wrench as a lever.

GLJ, I don't have a T-handle, so I've made a substitute using a copper pipe and wire passed through the end link multiple times:


PICT1888.JPG


The full set-up includes a socket & T-bar on the crank, to hold the engine at TDC or PDC. Braced against a fork stanchion, which runs across the front of the engine and bears against the cupboard on the right - effective in holding the engine from turning. Also, a small hardened screwdriver through the last pin at the forward end of the chain, bearing against two pieces of oak wedged in by the engine studs, to prevent that end of the chain jumping off:


PICT1887.JPG


With this set up plus long-suffering assistant holding the engine, I stood on a chair, placed one foot on the ledge just to the right of the engine in the pictures and heaved upwards, slightly back so as not to engage the sprocket. Assistant said the stretch achieved was enough to bring final pin to a position at the apex of a tooth - just a wee bit more would be enough.

At this point, I was pulling the chain enough to lift the engine.

Next?

Might risk lifting the engine of the bench onto a pallet on the floor. So as to be able to stand over it and get more heave. Or perhaps dominate it into submission?

People have raised the question whether the chain I have is too short so I am going to buy a new chain. Just so I can swap them about and confirm what I already know, that the one I have is 104 links which will be 106 when/if I ever get the blooming joining link in.

My life has become a bit one dimensional at the mo.

Part dismantled XS650, anyone? Buyer collects.
 
Just curious, who made your head gasket. Perhaps it is thicker than the norm?? I mention this because I have read on this forum that not all head gaskets are the same thickness. A 0.1mm variation would remove approximately 0.2mm of chain length. Maybe the head needs to be torqued down to full pressure to give some xtra 10ths of a mm?

Goto Mailman's thread: http://www.xs650.com/threads/head-gasket-question.53492/

and view link in Entry 2 by 650Skull.
 
Yeah. I think that’s the right approach. When Roland was building my engine and he said you cam chains too short. A new OEM chain. I showed him the threads of popping the bearing out and prying the cam up. He said he wasn’t prying on the camshaft. He studied the pictures of the guy who used spacers to compress the head and still didn’t think it would be enough to reach all the way around the sprocket. Just one link too short. I guess he set the timing, torqued the head and BOOM it fit perfectly. Good luck. I posted a thread titled Cam chain help a while back. I’d link it up here but I don’t know how to do it. Sorry. I’m a tech idiot.
 
Just curious, who made your head gasket. Perhaps it is thicker than the norm?? I mention this because I have read on this forum that not all head gaskets are the same thickness. A 0.1mm variation would remove approximately 0.2mm of chain length. Maybe the head needs to be torqued down to full pressure to give some xtra 10ths of a mm

Thank you Paul for a very good question. Oh, and I read the posts you linked to about gasket thickness.

I have to fess up. I used a new base gasket - the old one was knackered - but re-used the head gasket. It came away cleanly, well actually oily, and looks new so it went back in. In this discussion, I have assumed that re-using the old gasket must be beneficial as it has hopefully been squashed a bit.

I also adopted 5twins suggestion, used sockets and washers as spacers, torqued the head down. Not to full torque of 28 lb/ft because worried edges of the sockets will leave grooves on the mating surface. Fairly tight but not fully tight.

GLJ - if now understanding you right, you used the T-bar to lever the chain, with end pushed into a link and edge of head as fulcrum? How did you protect the head? I could try this using a tyre lever placed along the head to act as fulcrum.

I seem to be making very slow progress in building this engine. But, in forty years of rebuilding engines from time to time, I cannot remember a task that felt as difficult as fitting this cam chain.
 
Geeeezzzz Louise!!

Raymond - this is much too difficult. Tight is one thing but reefing on the engine with all your might is an indication of some sort of problem.

I strongly urge removing the chain for comprehensive measurements and de-kinking (no old chain - just feed some wire down in there to tow the new one back in).

No point in ruining something.
 
Place smooth washers UNDER your spacers so you don't mess up the sealing surface. I've had to gently pry a couple of these on. They were about a half link shy of fitting so I was able to stick a small screwdriver in the chain behind the last roller, screwdriver blade on the sprocket tooth I was trying to get over. A gentle pry "stretched" the chain that last little bit.
 
Raymond - this is much too difficult. Tight is one thing but reefing on the engine with all your might is an indication of some sort of problem. I strongly urge removing the chain for comprehensive measurements and de-kinking (no old chain - just feed some wire down in there to tow the new one back in).
No point in ruining something.
Well a major breakthrough has been made. One mystery has been solved and another much less significant mystery has been introduced.

I have listened to all those who said 'get that chain out and count/measure'. Instead of feeding wire through, Mrs gave me a pretty piece of green ribbon. Yes, really:


PICT1890.JPG


Well, I took her point that wire tends to kink and make a nuisance of itself, so ribbon it was.

We took the chain out and finally able to count. 104 rollers but only 102 pins.

WTF?

When I counted the links on Saturday 13th, I counted 108. Then I counted again, 108. Then asked Mrs to count. Didn't tell her what answer to expect. She got 108. That seems pretty conclusive, and fit well with the symptoms.

But either we could not count, neither of us, or I got confused taking one link out of the chain. But the chain is too short now. The joining link will use the two end rollers, giving only 104 pins.

So first I must eat plenty of humble pie for being unable to count or getting confussed. Then must order that new cam chain.

To everyone who was thinking 'there must be something wrong here', you were right.

At least the way ahead is looking clearer now . . .
 
Good - and humble pie has been served and eaten by quite a number of us here - so you are in good company.

The positive note is that we have learned a bit and we now have some solid data on the proper length of an XS650 timing chain - which has been an ongoing source of heartburn on the Forum for some time.

It sounds as though you may owe Madam another nice supper out. ;)

Pete
 
Last edited:
Raymond
I truly hope you are right.
Assistant said the stretch achieved was enough to bring final pin to a position at the apex of a tooth - just a wee bit more would be enough.
I would like to know how you got it that close if your chain is 2 links short. That is also a mystery to me.
 
Yes, you can't remove just one link, you have to take 2 at a time (an inner and an outer) to end up with an inner on the end. You join 2 inners with the master link.
 
When I had my fiasco I too counted wrong. I was counting plates. I think I was supposed to be counting pins. Oh well. But I was only short 1 link with nothing compressed. Hmmm? Get your new chain, compress the head or torque it down and you’re gonna be fine. Good luck Ray.
 
I should have taken some pictures when I was at Rolands shop.OK. Chains too short. He laid the old one down next to the new one. Compressed it. Counted links. They were the same. Stretched the old one. Slightly longer. The old one would go on but not the new one.I said “put the old one back on”. He said “no, it’s worn”. I said “get a longer chain”. He said “somethings wrong”. He torqued the head with a new gasket, since my head was on and off so many times, and it fit. When I picked my motor up I asked him “Have you ever seen something like this before? He said “Never. I’d have bet you a thousand dollars Hell, Chuck woulda bet you a thousand dollars you don’t have to torque the head to get a cam chain on”.
 
Raymond
I would like to know how you got it that close if your chain is 2 links short. That is also a mystery to me.

BFI - that's Brute Force and Ignorance.

At least I now understand why the job was impossible. New chain ordered yesterday and should be here Tuesday or Wednesday.

Been looking at the rockers and thinking how familiar they look - not the same part number but very similar rocker box layout to my SR500, owned 1979 on.


SR500 Rumgally Lodge 3.jpg


Apologies for poor picture quality - an old slide taken nearly 40 years ago.
 
Waiting for new cam chain so not much I can do in the garage today. Instead, brought the XS650 spreadsheet up to date. How sad is that?

If you are just as sad, read on to see summary of spending so far. For some reason, wanted to keep a record of how much the bike is costing me and where that money went. There's over 50 items which I won't bore you with but I put every expenditure into one of 6 categories:

Total Parts £856.31
Total Tools £29.85
Total Electrical Cables, connectors £18.66
Total Services Machining, painting, etc £205.00
Total consumables Oil, batteries, tyres, etc £69.40
Total other Vat, postage, etc £120.00
Grand Total £1,299.22

Unfortunately, Services includes a bill for work done on the original fuel tank, which then had to be written off. Other includes postage from the Netherlands and Germany and foreign currency charges. But Tools has been cut back by the refund on the cam chain splitter.

There will be more. The painter will need about £300 and there's bound to be other bits and bobs.

Thank gawd I don't charge myself for my own time and running around . . .
 
Last edited:
Back
Top