okies, I think I'm singing the regulator blues

[txpowdercoater]

The rundown.
81 xs 650, wiring totally removed and redone with only headlight (wired through relay and neutral switch) and tailight. No E start and a UB1250 5amp hr battery.
Wiring is a breeze to me and everything is connected as should be.

the problem is:
I think its overcharging at high rpm's and it toasts the battery, end result, me pushing it home twice.

The first time it happened, I did an 85 mph (gears 18/30 so rpm's werent screaming like when it was stock at 70mph) blast down the freeway for 5 minutes each direction, then got 1.5 miles form the house and it died at a light. I had zero power so I know its not gonna start so I push it home, after I recovered from the heat induced heart atttack and the 3rd degree burns from my balls bursting into flames, I check it out and find the battery is toast, no resistance at all between the contacts and all is wired correctly as I knew, and if I stuck a new battery in it worked perfectly at around town riding and such, all day on and off no problems. With a voltmeter, trying to check the battery voltage while revving in neutral, it spiked to 15.3 but at lower rpms was in the 13 range.
soooo, I hop on the freeway again and do another run, buzzing about 5 minutes again each way, this time made it 4 blocks from the house and died at a light and also dead as a doornail. checking again, battery is toast.
need to change regulator or get a better brand battery?

what if I wired another relay to work off of the neutral switch to disconnect the battery when its in gear and charges it when in neutral? the battery is plenty big enough to give lots and lots of kick starts w/o any charging at all, so does that idea sound ok or does the charging system have to have the battery as a load? Thinking the headlight at 40+ watts and engine running should be enough of a load, yes?

 

[KevC]

txpowdercoater
have a look at this thread HERE on how to check out your reg/rec

 

[pamcopete]

txpowder....,

Basically what you are suggesting is to just use the battery for the ignition to start the engine and after that, the whole thing just runs on the alternator, and that is not a bad idea, but you will have to include a capacitor like they use in the PM setups because the regulator will go ape without the battery to stabilize the voltage.

What I don't know is if the TCI will like this arrangement because the TCI does not like low battery voltage. There are other ignition systems out there that would work just fine with a low battery voltage. But, you can always try it first to find out.

Perhaps you have invented a whole new class of alternator setup. Not a PM and not a conventional battery setup, but a BootStrap system. (BS alternator? Huh? )

 

[txpowdercoater]

okies pete, I'm down for some capacitor installation tomorrrow, what uf you reckon I should get?
just get a big honking capacitor like the 450 ones we used to charge and toss at each other in E class? ill research the pm threads

 

[pamcopete]

txpowder...,

Well, you will have to get one of the expensive capacitors that they use in a PM setup. Like, 10,000 mfd @25 WVDC.

It's funny you should mention the tricks in "E" class. We used to reverse the polarity of the huge capacitors during break and they would explode when the instructor came back and turned everything on again. Made a real mess.
Actually, we only did it once because we didn't realize how big a bang we would get!!

Just remember this little story when you go to install the huge capacitor. I would seriously recommend that you wear safety glasses.

 

[txpowdercoater]

txpowder...,

Well, you will have to get one of the expensive capacitors that they use in a PM setup. Like, 10,000 mfd @25 WVDC.

It's funny you should mention the tricks in "E" class. We used to reverse the polarity of the huge capacitors during break and they would explode when the instructor came back and turned everything on again. Made a real mess.
Actually, we only did it once because we didn't realize how big a bang we would get!!

Just remember this little story when you go to install the huge capacitor. I would seriously recommend that you wear safety glasses.

I've launched many a cap can and paper rolls across the room myself
I'll go to the local EPO and get it tomorrow and then I'll wire another relay off of the neutral switch to kill power to battery and shunt the cap in when put in gear. We will see what happens.

 

[Earz]

I just installed a PM setup with a cap, but I'm curious to see if this works.

Posted via Mobile

 

[pamcopete]

tx....,

You are going to have to have the capacitor on line all the time. Even a brief break in power to the ignition system will probably result in a miss or backfire.

The other problem is that there will be no power for the relay initially before you start the engine because you will be depending on the battery for power for startup, so like "catch 22". Probably need a diode across the relay contacts to provide power when the engine is stopped and also serve to provide power at low RPM's when in gear and the contacts of the relay are open.

It's still early in the morning, but should have an answer by the time you get the HUGE capacitor installed.

 

[txpowdercoater]

tx....,

You are going to have to have the capacitor on line all the time. Even a brief break in power to the ignition system will probably result in a miss or backfire.

The other problem is that there will be no power for the relay initially before you start the engine because you will be depending on the battery for power for startup, so like "catch 22". Probably need a diode across the relay contacts to provide power when the engine is stopped and also serve to provide power at low RPM's when in gear and the contacts of the relay are open.

It's still early in the morning, but should have an answer by the time you get the HUGE capacitor installed.

the power for the relay should be provided by the battery when the switch is on and in neutral ready to kick. when it starts and you put it in gear, the power to the batt should be removed with the neutral switch and relay. The only thing I will switch of is the battery from the circuit, wouldnt the charge from the engine running keep the relay activated while it runs?
I have had this bike running with starting it w/ the battery and then disconnect the battery and it still ran, or seemed to run fine, I havent run it down the road on its own power while it tries to feed the headlight batteryless yet.

 

[pamcopete]

tx...,

The relay has to operate in order to turn the battery on. There is no power until the relay is on. Where will the relay get its power from if it is not on? Like, going in a circle...

 

[txpowdercoater]

tx...,

The relay has to operate in order to turn the battery on. There is no power until the relay is on. Where will the relay get its power from if it is not on? Like, going in a circle...

with the bike in neutral and the key on, battery is "on" kick start and run, when the bike is put in gear, the relay trips and the battery is disconnected from the bike circuit. the relay hot can be always be with the battery easily still or can be "held" by the electric of the motor running I would think, separate w/ a diode. Why wouldnt I be able to isolate the hot to the relay from everything else basically, the relay power is different and its not going to be used as a current switch or throughput to a device like a headlight, it will be used as a switch only.
I havent drawn out a schematic on paper yet, just tossing it around in the dust in my head but seems easy enough.
What I dont want to do is over-engineer an easy fix. The bike ran great when it used the bigger battery capable of e-start, now with the smaller battery, I dont think it likes the spikes created by the xs system. I mean, at 15v, I shouldnt be going through batteries, but maybe these chinese ones are fragile compared to the lead acid type.
I do see on the forum where others are running them with no issues, so it really burns my butt to have to spend money on a huge cap that may or may not work, when I could drop a correct battery and be happy, well thats if I had the room for the bigger battery....also the cap of that size isnt a small one either and then there needs a place for it and the relay and associated wiring etc and it all adds up to a cluster trying to avoid the use of the bigger battery due to space but then again taking up more space with the other BS needed to make it work properly, still on the fence. I could toss a regular small motorcycle battery at the front of my bike towards the bottom of the down tubes in a case and it wouldnt be in the way there, but crap, thats like surrendering or turning tail and running sort of......

 

[pumps]

"What I don't want to do is over-engineer an easy fix."

I love all the experimental tech stuff but for all the work and cost wouldn't it be easier to just do petes reg/ rectifier mods? Or is it just the challenge and that you want to run the smaller battery?

 

[txpowdercoater]

"What I don't want to do is over-engineer an easy fix."

I love all the experimental tech stuff but for all the work and cost wouldn't it be easier to just do petes reg/ rectifier mods? Or is it just the challenge and that you want to run the smaller battery?

me being a noob, dont know about petes goodies and his achivements, I do see him respond a lot and seems to knows whats up, but don't know squat about his stuff or any other type available on the market for these bikes. I am a 3 week xs owner and considered myself lucky when I found the 81 to have electronic ignition instead of points.
I have learned that the xs will start and run w/o a batt. if you convert to permanent mag type alt, but heard it was expensive and havent researched it yet.
believe me, I am not into redesigning the wheel and the project started out as getting rid of the e start and big battery, the wiring is correct but its blows the smaller battery after a 5 mile 4k rpm run.
Then to solve it or probably not, it gets into an expensive cap. just to try and thats not gonna be happening, it would if the cap was cheap and small, but its not so, big and bulky.
I could be done with it by putting the reg. lead acid battery back on the bike, but crap, the object was to get rid of that big ugly crap.
sooooo, that being said, im kinda peeved and not sure what direction I should go, I know damn well the bike ran great with the reg. battery installed, I rode it across town 40 miles each way at 70mph , before the new gears were installed and it was buzzing 5k rpms the whole time, wokred perfectly. just was trying to get away from having to run the big battery when I dont need it for anything but "exciting" the alt to start with. fkn sux.
makes me wonder what the others are doing to get the small battery to work, is it the battery type and make I have chosen that sucks and they are to sensitive or is it something else, sure wish I had more "real" data.

 

[pumps]

Not hatin' on ya brother. I admire your perseverance and ingenuity.
You don't say if you are running the oem regulator and rectifier but have you looked at them?
"the problem is:
I think its overcharging at high rpm's and it toasts the battery, end result, me pushing it home twice."
Check out this solution. Maybe if you are overcharging as you think, this would be a direction to explore?
http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Charging&action=display&thread=9306&page=1#58628

 

[txpowdercoater]

Not hatin' on ya brother. I admire your perseverance and ingenuity.
You don't say if you are running the oem regulator and rectifier but have you looked at them?
"the problem is:
I think its overcharging at high rpm's and it toasts the battery, end result, me pushing it home twice."
Check out this solution. Maybe if you are overcharging as you think, this would be a direction to explore?
http://xs650temp.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Charging&action=display&thread=9306&page=1#58628

holy shit thats awesome! thanks

 

[Sundie]

You could also put a 14v zener diode across the battery as a backup regulator.

BUt fixing your actual regulator is probably a better idea.

Also, i find this little dealio to be an excellent indicator of what's going on with the charging system.

 

[txpowdercoater]

okies, finally got the time to strap it on the table and rev her up with the meter on, at a decent rev, maxed out at 17.73v woo-hooo, sizzle, pop those little chinese batteries, anyways, I'll do the pamcopete reg and worry no more.

 

[Sundie]

Yeah. That is a leetle high.

 

[pumps]

Yeah I'd think at 17 - 18 volts a lot of your electrical components will have their lives , how shall I say, abbreviated? On the regulator mod that partsamerica.com site is no more. I tried OReilly Auto parts, Advance Auto parts and napa and napa was the cheapest. $34.00 , $30.00 , $24.00 in that same order. Heck the price it right!

 

[txpowdercoater]

Yeah I'd think at 17 - 18 volts a lot of your electrical components will have their lives , how shall I say, abbreviated? On the regulator mod that partsamerica.com site is no more. I tried OReilly Auto parts, Advance Auto parts and napa and napa was the cheapest. $34.00 , $30.00 , $24.00 in that same order. Heck the price it right!

I just got it from napa for 12 something, normally 14 or so.