Only receiving .01v per kick

[ember]

I am having some charging problems. '76 XS650, complete Pamco, Hugh's PMA with reg/rect combo, new dual high output coil (mike's black) kick only and running 2 capacitors inline. No battery.

Was running, then once hot, died on me and I could not get it to start. Multi meter at the capacitor shows it receiving a charge of only .01v per each kick. Thus 10 kicks I may get 1v of charge.

Is this a regulator/rectifier issue? My bike is stored at a buddies where I broke down, so don't have it in front of me.

Any info or suggestions on testing would be greatly appreciated.

 

[pamcopete]

Temporally wire the PAMCO and the coil to a separate battery sitting on the floor so you can start the engine and trouble shoot the PMA. Just leave the kill switch off and jumper from the coil positive and the PAMCO red wire to the positive of the battery. Then, just ground the negative of the battery to the frame. Do not leave it this way for very long if the engine is not running.

 

[ember]

I will try later when I can get to the bike, but for a little more info- I did use some jumper wires from a car battery to my capacitor earlier today and it started.

I then disconnected the battery. And kicked it over and it fired on the caps alone.

I then rode it around to adjust carbs. I shut the bike off a few times within a 15 minute period and it kick started and fired each time I shut it down. I then got to my final destination, shut it down for maybe 20 minutes, came out to start it and will not start.

 

[pamcopete]

ember,

OK. Was your headlight off? When you try again, do not just jumper the battery to the capacitor because you may be masking the problem. When you say you are running two capacitors inline, do you mean in parallel or in series? And, why are you doing that?

 

[ember]

I believe parallel. My knowledge is not that great with electricity. I am running two caps for redundancy/backup. Was running a small battery pack, but I was having charging problems as well, or just bad batteries, so I went to a cap.

No lights were on. When I kick the bike I get the .01 volt with each kick, and when I press my brake light it discharges the cap completely.

My guess is that I charged the caps with 12v with the battery, but never discharged them while out riding. I may have pressed the brake when the bike was off and discharged the caps, thus no start.

Another note, my lights would dim quite a bit at idle and get brighter when up to speed. This was before I was having the non start problem with my caps.

 

[pamcopete]

ember,

OK. What is the total capacitance of the two capacitors in parallel?

Remember that equal capacitors in parallel are twice the capacitance of one capacitor whereas equal capacitors in series are 1/2 the capacitance of one of the capacitors, so if you have them in series, you are only getting 1/2 the capacitance of one of them.

Even if they are in parallel, they will take twice as long to charge up to any given voltage, so that could be the issue as well. I would suggest that you eliminate one of the capacitors and try that, especially since you are unsure if they are in parallel or series.

 

[ember]

Thanks, Pete. I will give it a shot. But I was running a single cap before I added the second, thinking that may solve the dimming light issue, but it did not. So don't think it will help me getting it to fire by removing one. But will try.

They are in fact parallel. Pos to pos, neg to neg. They are the blue Sparx caps, so not too sure what the total capacitance is.

I barely got this bike on the road, so I have maybe 50 miles on the whole system, but have had nothing but headaches thus far.

I appreciate your help.

 

[XSLeo]

On any PMA system you need to test it seperatly from the ignition. This is what Pamcopete was suggesting at the start. Hooking the ignition to a seperate battery will power the igntion without using the PMA.
With the bike running on the battery check the voltage at the caps. It should be above 12 volts at idle and climb to 14.5 volts much above idle. This is with the lights on or off. The voltage should never go above 14.5 volts.
If the voltage is low or high you need to check your wiring. Bad grounds or loose wires will cause the voltage to be off. It might be your reg/rec is bad.
You need to do the testing to find out.
Leo

 

[ember]

Temporally wire the PAMCO and the coil to a separate battery sitting on the floor so you can start the engine and trouble shoot the PMA. Just leave the kill switch off and jumper from the coil positive and the PAMCO red wire to the positive of the battery. Then, just ground the negative of the battery to the frame. Do not leave it this way for very long if the engine is not running.

I jumped the hot side of the coil as mentioned. Hooked frame ground wire to frame. Had positive hooked to battery, but as soon as I connected the negative post to the battery, instant backfire out the pipe. Scared the crap out of me.
I was kicking it over earlier in the day, so I am guessing the coil got hot sending spark to the plugs, and ignited the fumes.

My question, was this normal for this test procedure? I do not want to fry the Pamco. I don't want to do any more testing until I can confirm if normal or if I screwed something. But from the instant backfire out the pipe, I am guessing the Pamco is working.
Thanks.

By the way, this is the wiring I am running, minus the battery and "master switch." Just a normal on/off switch for my ignition/kill switch. I also removed the second capacitor.

 

[pamcopete]

ember,

The backfire was probably caused by a momentary disconnect as you were attaching the battery negative to the frame. I doubt that the PAMCO is damaged, so go ahead and do your tests.

I guess I do not understand your wiring diagram. Is that how you have the battery connected for the test? The idea of using a separate battery is to completely isolate the ignition system from the PMA so the battery is not a part of the bike wiring at all. The battery is wired to just the coil and the PAMCO with the kill switch off. As was mentioned before, if you hook it up the way you show it in that diagram, you will hide the problem because the battery will provide a voltage to the capacitor instead of the PMA. The battery is not supposed to be a part of the bikes wiring at all.

 

[ember]

No, that is the wiring for the bike in general, minus the battery. I found that diagram on this site to illustrate. I am only running a capacitor.

I completely isolated the system with a car battery on the floor as you mentioned. I unplugged the regulator/rect for the test. Kill switch is off, hooked alligator clip to coil terminal where the pamco hot is connected then hooked to battery. Ground wire on frame, but as soon as I touched the ground wire to the negative terminal on the battery, BOOM. Not too sure if the kill switch is to blame or, maybe as you stated, was a momentary disconnect.

Scared the total crap out of me when it back fired next to my ear.

 

[XSLeo]

You can't test the PMA with the reg/rec unplugged. If your bike is wired as in that diagram just put the kill switch in the off position, hook the battery to ground and the red wire at the coil.
This powers just the ignition. Now start the bike. It should run fine, If the ignition is working ok.
In the diagram both a battery and a cap are shown, only one or the other is needed.
As it idles test the voltage at the cap or battery. It should read somewhere around 12.5 to 14.5 volts. As you rev the bike it should never read more than 14.5 volts.
If you get no reading or a very high reading you need to check all the wiring from the stator to the reg/rec and from the reg/rec to the cap or battery.
Leo

 

[ember]

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, the diagram I posted was not mine, but figured since this was an electrical question I would post a diagram, something close, to what I have. I am only running a capacitor.

I fired the bike up with just the battery on the floor as Pete suggested. Reg/rect. unplugged. So I know it is not the Pamco. Unhooked the floor battery, plugged in the reg/rect. Tried kicking and nothing.

Now I need to figure out how to test the solid state reg/rect. If anyone has a source on testing these, please let me know. I don't know which leads go where nor do I know the resistance specs. But I am guessing if I get no resistance, or open/infinity, then the reg/rect is bad.
The PMA is a Hugh's kit if it makes a difference. 3 yellow wires, one red, one green.

Again, thanks for the help. I know of no one good with electrical systems.

 

[XSLeo]

Leave the reg/rec plugged in.
Hook just the ignition to the battery.
Start the bike.
Test voltage at the cap. At idle, 2500 and 5000 rpms.
Report back what voltages you get.
Leo

 

[ember]

Not getting any voltage at the cap, Leo. If there was anything it was very low, under a volt.

 

[XSLeo]

I would check wiring first, then it might be the stator or reg/rec.
With it running use the AC scale on your meter, check the three wires coming from the stator. Don't unplug the reg/rec, just back probe the wires in the plug. What reading do you get?
Leo

 

[ember]

Probing the plug for the reg/rect/stator, I am getting 0.1-0.3 on the dc scale. Depending on which wire I test.

Would this indicate or point to a bad reg/rect? Or is there a way to test each the stator and reg/rect individually and separate from each other?

 

[XSLeo]

You need to follow proper procedure when testing. If not your readings are meaningless.
So follow the steps I out lined in my last post.
Use the AC scale, probe the three wires from the stator. You should get an AC reading somewhere in the 10-20 volt range.
To test the stator without the engine running. Unplug the connector. Check the three wires from the stator. Test them as three pairs. Number the three wires 1,2,3, test 1-2 2-3, 1-3. Use the 200 ohm scale. The readings you will get are very low ohms, to properly test low ohms, touch the probes together, this gives you the ohms of just the leads. remember this reading. Now test your stator wires. Now subtract the first reading you got from the test readings. An example is touch the probes and get .3 ohms, now test your wires. you get .7 on all three. Now subtract the first reading from the test reading. .7-.3 is .4. This is your actual reading.
Now use a high ohm scale, like 200k, Touch the probes, one to the wires to the stator and one probe to the steel body of the stator.
If your actual readings of the stator are within specs for your stator and you get no reading from the wires to the body your stator is good.
On the reg/rec you can test the rectifier half of the reg/rec but not the regulator half. Unplug the reg/rec, use the 200 ohms scale. Put the red lead on the red wire, or whatever color that hooks to the positive of the cap, yours may be green, from the reg/rec, touch the black probe to each of the wires that hook to the stator. Write the readings down. Now hook the black lead to the positive wire from the reg/rec. Touch the red probe to the three wires from the reg/rec. Write the readings down.
Now hook the red meter lead to the ground wire of the reg/rec. Touch the other to the three wires, Hook the black lead to the ground, touch the three wires.
Now you should have four sets of reading written down. The first and second readings, one will have some where around 5-700 ohms and infinity on the other.
The 3 and 4 will be just the opposite.
Report back the results of these tests.
Leo

 

[ember]

Thanks, Leo. Will do this evening.
We should make a sticky, or at least a thread, on this type of thing so you don't have to write so much. This with the pamco test procedure. I know this issue has come up in the past, but the info is all over, in bits and pieces, while searching the forum. For the PMA/Pamco, not stock stuff.

I appreciate your help.

 

[ember]

Got a new meter to double check my readings.

I am using a new auto range digital meter set to auto/ohms to check against my cheapie $5 meter. Here are the readings going by your directions:

Stator without engine running- .5 at all three wires and no reading to the steel body.

Reg/rect-
Red lead to red on cap, black lead to stator wires- no signal
Black lead to red on cap, red lead to stator wires- .7 .7 .8
Red lead to black on cap, black lead to stator wires- .7 .7 .8
Black lead to black on cap, red lead to stator wires- no signal

I tried to get a reading touching the probes, but numbers were jumping all over the place with every breath. Would go to zero for a second, then jump around. This was also the case for my cheapie.

By no signal I get OL on the meter, or I am guessing open/infinity.