XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
Tom- I removed and cleaned the carbs when I first noticed the weak cylinder. After reinstalling them and still having the issue the next trouble shooting step pointed to the ignition system.
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PAMCO or points?
- Thread starter XSsesive50
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- electrical
Ghaniba
XS650 Enthusiast
I replaced the points system in my '78 SE, and it ran very good. I replaced the points system with the Pamco and it runs better than it ever has. To me, the pamco was worth the price of admission for never having to do the points gap dance again. I put about 200 miles on mine over this weekend, just runs so nicely now!
Dave
Dave
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
See everyone bags on points.....maybe Im not smart enough to know better....or maybe my bike is badly out of tune and I just havent noticed.
I set my points when I freshened the top end end.....thats been about 8K miles and almost 12 months ago.
Since then Ive never adjusted the gap.....never replaced them.....I havent done anything with that "area" of the bike or engine.
It starts either first or second kick.....always (unless Im being retarded and dont turn the gas on.....in which case I kick and cuss for 10 mins before I realize my error - I REALLY wish I could fault the bike for the lapse in judgement).
Ive never been stranded......my plugs look good.....no back firing....popping.....or any other non sense.
Hell I didnt even put new points in it.....the ones the dude before me had in there looked "good enough" so I ran them.....the condenser - didnt even look at it.
Are points supposed to be problematic and Ive just got a really lucky run going here.....or whats going on.
I had a buddy immediately pull the points out of his XS project and went PAMCO from the start. It was easy to setup.....it did start right off and worked great. However 30 mins later the hall effect sensor went kaput and he was pushing his bike back home.
Got the part replaced easy enough.....and Im sure its not frequent but I did see it with my own eyes. PAMCOs do fail.
Mention above of 200 miles over the weekend.....Ive done 1000 mile weekends (500 out, 500 back) more than a few times on mine and never adjusted the points.
......heck I want to look in there just to see how on earth the things are still working.....sounds like your supposed to fiddle with these things every other day. Maybe I have a wizard in there adjusting mine non-stop.
Dont get me wrong....I think the PAMCO is great.....and when/if I have an issue with my ignition system that costs me money enough that nears the cost of the PAMCO I likely will upgrade.....but as long as I can toss a $25 worth of parts at the thing and go down the road....well that PAMCO will just have to wait.
I set my points when I freshened the top end end.....thats been about 8K miles and almost 12 months ago.
Since then Ive never adjusted the gap.....never replaced them.....I havent done anything with that "area" of the bike or engine.
It starts either first or second kick.....always (unless Im being retarded and dont turn the gas on.....in which case I kick and cuss for 10 mins before I realize my error - I REALLY wish I could fault the bike for the lapse in judgement).
Ive never been stranded......my plugs look good.....no back firing....popping.....or any other non sense.
Hell I didnt even put new points in it.....the ones the dude before me had in there looked "good enough" so I ran them.....the condenser - didnt even look at it.
Are points supposed to be problematic and Ive just got a really lucky run going here.....or whats going on.
I had a buddy immediately pull the points out of his XS project and went PAMCO from the start. It was easy to setup.....it did start right off and worked great. However 30 mins later the hall effect sensor went kaput and he was pushing his bike back home.
Got the part replaced easy enough.....and Im sure its not frequent but I did see it with my own eyes. PAMCOs do fail.
Mention above of 200 miles over the weekend.....Ive done 1000 mile weekends (500 out, 500 back) more than a few times on mine and never adjusted the points.
......heck I want to look in there just to see how on earth the things are still working.....sounds like your supposed to fiddle with these things every other day. Maybe I have a wizard in there adjusting mine non-stop.
Dont get me wrong....I think the PAMCO is great.....and when/if I have an issue with my ignition system that costs me money enough that nears the cost of the PAMCO I likely will upgrade.....but as long as I can toss a $25 worth of parts at the thing and go down the road....well that PAMCO will just have to wait.
Ghaniba
XS650 Enthusiast
This discussion could go on forever. Points do work. There's no question you could set them and ride for the whole season with no issue. Here's what it comes down to for me.
Points:
2 gaps that require using a feeler gauge to set, subject to corrosion.
2 coils and a condenser.
Pamco:
Hall sensor - Positive, negative and a feed to the coil.
Coil - 12v and the feed from the Hall sensor
None of those have ever left me stranded, it was the charging system that has. It comes down to this - Are you more comfortable with wires or mechanical? It's a personal opinion, neither direction HAS to be done which is why this arguement will go on forever.
Dave
Points:
2 gaps that require using a feeler gauge to set, subject to corrosion.
2 coils and a condenser.
Pamco:
Hall sensor - Positive, negative and a feed to the coil.
Coil - 12v and the feed from the Hall sensor
None of those have ever left me stranded, it was the charging system that has. It comes down to this - Are you more comfortable with wires or mechanical? It's a personal opinion, neither direction HAS to be done which is why this arguement will go on forever.
Dave
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
aaron- Sounds like you have a fantastically tuned bike. Its great when everything is in synch and that's a LOT of things to be in synch to make a bike run flawlessly. This is my 2nd XS. I worked overseas for a year and saved up some money to buy an XS that was built fresh and ready to ride. That was my 1975 XS650. It was frame up rebuilt by a retired Yamaha tech with over 30 years experience and BTW he built an XS650 for Billy Joel just so you know how good he is. The only issue I had with the bike was a hole developed in the right carb rubber diaphragm less than a month after I bought it. Other than that she runs like a new bike. My buddy had this 1978 XS650 Special that was solid mechanically but had sat for 2 years and needed some cosmetic TLC. I wanted to build a cafe/rat style bike out of it so I paid him $800 and started to go through it. After cleaning the carbs and adding the pod air filters and fresh gas she fired up and idled good, just had the weak exhaust and sputtering that I described. This '78 is the first XS that I have had to start diagnosing and thus have learned a lot about these cool old bikes. As for the points versus PAMCO, as long as I don't have any problems with the '75 ignition system I plan on keeping it points. I went ahead and ordered the PAMCO for the '78 Special and will install it, then follow up with an update here.
aaronrkelly brings up some very good "points". Pun intended.
Back in the old days, everyone used points and never thought anything about it. I had a 1976 XS500C (bought new) for 13 years and never had any problems with the points. Considering how simple points are, they do a good job firing the plugs.
The weak area of the old ignitions was the ignition coil. The stock coils only put out 13 k volts when new. As the coils aged, the spark plug leads aged, and the caps aged, the voltage could drop off until the spark was very weak.
Lads buy these old bikes, with worn out ignition parts, worn out rectifier and regulator, and the result is an engine that barely runs if it runs at all.
Its easy to blame the points when the engine runs badly, but they are not the real villan. If you have proper voltage such as 14.1 volts at 3000 rpm, good spark plug leads/caps ,and a strong ignition coil, your engine will run just fine using points.
I used points for the first year I had my XS650, along with my Accel coil, and the engine ran great.
Most of the young lads are unfamiliar with points, so buying a Pamco kit is the easy way out.
Back in the old days, everyone used points and never thought anything about it. I had a 1976 XS500C (bought new) for 13 years and never had any problems with the points. Considering how simple points are, they do a good job firing the plugs.
The weak area of the old ignitions was the ignition coil. The stock coils only put out 13 k volts when new. As the coils aged, the spark plug leads aged, and the caps aged, the voltage could drop off until the spark was very weak.
Lads buy these old bikes, with worn out ignition parts, worn out rectifier and regulator, and the result is an engine that barely runs if it runs at all.
Its easy to blame the points when the engine runs badly, but they are not the real villan. If you have proper voltage such as 14.1 volts at 3000 rpm, good spark plug leads/caps ,and a strong ignition coil, your engine will run just fine using points.
I used points for the first year I had my XS650, along with my Accel coil, and the engine ran great.
Most of the young lads are unfamiliar with points, so buying a Pamco kit is the easy way out.
Tomterrific
XS650 Junkie
I have the same luck with points as Aaron. Set and forget. There are benefits to a transistor and there are problems. The big problem, what do you do if the transistor blows? Would I change out the stock TCI for points, no. Would I change out a Pamco for points, no, but I also would be adverse to switching a good points system for a Pamco. I guess I understand how points work so I embrace the old system.
Tom
Tom
I don't have one, but I see a serious advantage of PamcoPete's advancer system (with the start-retard feature) over a factory $250 mechanical spark advancer unit...
I usually get about 2,500 miles before needing to adjust my points. I usually replace them after about 3 adjustments (7,500 miles). This is about how much I ride my xs650 in 2 years.
Getting 8,000 miles out of a set of points is pretty uncommon.
When I replace the points I usually replace the condenser too. I probably dont need to, but I like to know its in good shape and working.
Points and condensers for these bikes aren't cheap any more. With shipping, its going to cost about $45 to get a new set... so it costs me $45 every two years, plus a few hours of adjustment every 6 months or so.
I just installed new points and condenser in my bike. Next time they need replaced, I will seriously consider a PAMCO... just because its going to be cheaper in the long run. you can buy a new PAMCO and compatible coil for the price of 3-4 sets of points and condensers.
I like points, my bike starts in 1-2 kicks, and it runs good. I'm hoping to have more time to ride soon, due to some school / work changes, so the extra miles I'm envisioning putting on the xs650 make the PAMCO seem like the cheaper option in the long run.
(If anyone knows where to buy cheap points and condensers for our bikes, please let me know... All I can find is $25 points sets and $15 capacitors... which is crazy high for what you get.)
Getting 8,000 miles out of a set of points is pretty uncommon.
When I replace the points I usually replace the condenser too. I probably dont need to, but I like to know its in good shape and working.
Points and condensers for these bikes aren't cheap any more. With shipping, its going to cost about $45 to get a new set... so it costs me $45 every two years, plus a few hours of adjustment every 6 months or so.
I just installed new points and condenser in my bike. Next time they need replaced, I will seriously consider a PAMCO... just because its going to be cheaper in the long run. you can buy a new PAMCO and compatible coil for the price of 3-4 sets of points and condensers.
I like points, my bike starts in 1-2 kicks, and it runs good. I'm hoping to have more time to ride soon, due to some school / work changes, so the extra miles I'm envisioning putting on the xs650 make the PAMCO seem like the cheaper option in the long run.
(If anyone knows where to buy cheap points and condensers for our bikes, please let me know... All I can find is $25 points sets and $15 capacitors... which is crazy high for what you get.)
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
79xs- You and I are in the same boat. I ordered new points and an OEM condenser and it ran me $65 plus $9 shipping. As of now, my bike starts in 1 or 2 kicks but I still have the weak, sputtering right cylinder which could be from a bad coil since that is the only thing I haven't replaced. That will be another $30 plus shipping. I do believe that the PAMCO makes more sense in the long run. That is why I ordered one.
Incidentally both plugs are tan in color, which is what the manual says they should be. If I had bad piston rings, wouldn't that plug foul, be black with oil, or smell of gas?
Incidentally both plugs are tan in color, which is what the manual says they should be. If I had bad piston rings, wouldn't that plug foul, be black with oil, or smell of gas?
I think the points and condensers are cheaper from Mike's, aren't they? They were good quality a few years back when I needed them because I still ran points.
I still run points on my old BMWs and will continue to do so because it's a simple, well made system. The recommendation for them is to replace the points set every 10 to 15K even if they still look OK. The reason is the spring steel strap, the "spring" that keeps them tensioned. In that amount of miles, the points open and close literally millions of times and that "spring" can get weak.
I still run points on my old BMWs and will continue to do so because it's a simple, well made system. The recommendation for them is to replace the points set every 10 to 15K even if they still look OK. The reason is the spring steel strap, the "spring" that keeps them tensioned. In that amount of miles, the points open and close literally millions of times and that "spring" can get weak.
aaronrkelly
XS650 Addict
K&L brand kit from my local shop cost $25 - they said they always keep a couple on hand.
20-6821 is the part number......eBay shows some around $30 shipped.....and one set for $15 shipped.
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
PAMCO system arrived today. I will install this weekend and post an update.
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
Had some free time on my hands today so I went ahead and installed the PAMCO. What a world of difference! I still have to time with a timing light but with the plate at the center position per the instructions the bike fired right up and both cylinders sound strong! Anyone know how I can post pictures?
yamahammer
XS650 Addict
I've used a pamco on my 750 rephase and it was very easy to install and time. I had a regulator issue that fried two of them though. Pete warrantied it, good customer support. I got a replacement regulator from Hugh and hooked the points back up to make sure my charging issue was solved. I've covered thousands of miles this season with points and havent felt the need for another Pamco yet. I did get tired of condensors though so I hooked up ford tfi modules/coils. I would recommend that mod to anyone who likes the simplicity of points but wants the hot-ass spark of a low impedence coils
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
Ok, today I set the timing with a timing light. Rotor mark lined up between the 2 marks on either side of the "F". She is stumbling while at idle though. Sort of like a race car with a racing cam. Accelerates fine, but has that "loping" idle. Any recommendations?
Are you using a mechanical advance unit? If so then you should check timing at full advance. That will determine where it falls at idle. You don't want the timing to go past the full advance mark at all.
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
I do have mechanical advance. So the timing light should illuminate my rotor timing mark on the full advance mark at idle?
No, not at idle, when you rev it to like 3K. When you check your timing with a timing light, you check it at both idle (looking for it to be in the "F" range) and then revved (to verify you're not too far advanced). Running with the timing too far advanced is bad and can hole a piston.
XSsesive50
XS650 Enthusiast
Ok since I installed the pamco, I am now having backfire and elevating idle when I start the bike. I timed it this morning but after sitting, the timing light isnt flashing on idle to check timing mark on rotor. When I rev up to around 2500 rpm's the light flashes.
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