Pentagram/Star Wheels: My rebuild and How-To thread

[pamcopete]

Scott,

What is the diameter of the axles? I had to make a spacer on my lathe for my CB750 change to XS650 wheels. Raw material available at Lowes. They also have some large washers that I used on one side as well.

 

[scott s]

I believe it's 19 or 20mm. Whatever the stock 1975 XS650 axle is.
All I have in my hands right now are the spacers. I haven't pulled the rear wheel/axle yet. That will come soon. I have some time off coming up and hope to get back on them.

I need to catch up with you soon anyway and grab that Pamco.

 

[pamcopete]

I believe it's 19 or 20mm. Whatever the stock 1975 XS650 axle is.
All I have in my hands right now are the spacers. I haven't pulled the rear wheel/axle yet. That will come soon. I have some time off coming up and hope to get back on them.

I need to catch up with you soon anyway and grab that Pamco.

Well, I've got a set of front wheel bearings for a XS650 '75 to '83 and one is 17mm, the other is 20mm ID. The rear axle is 20mm both ends. I know I can make a 20mm spacer.

 

[scott s]

I have new All Balls bearings. Just need time off to get back to building the wheels. I may take you up on that spacer. I won't really know until I actually try to fit everything.

 

[XSFazz]

Just stumbled upon this thread while searching for my own set of these.

Just noticed - can you not run a dual disc setup with the pentagram front wheel?

Either way, hope I can find a set of these one day. Nice work bringing these back to life!!

 

[scott s]

Yes, you should be able to run dual disc. The wheel is drilled all the way through and just uses a cover on the LH side.

I got the bearings installed yesterday. The front was a straight up install since the XS500 and XS650 use the same bearings, spacers, etc.

The rear, I ended up using the internal spacer that came with the wheel. Not sure what it's from, but it's smaller than the XS650 disc brake wheel spacer.
I plan on pulling the rear wheel today so I can swap over the sprocket. There's still some unanswered questions about what spacers or combination of spacers I will need on the axle; on the outside of the bearings.

I think I'll wait to have the rear tire mounted so it will be easier to move the wheel around on the axle and get the spacers right.

I'll also be going today to have a new rear brake hose made. Hopefully, soon, I can show you guys what these wheels look like mounted on an XS650!

 

[scott s]

The fronts are like stock. Even used the grease/dust shield. If you removed the chrome cover, you would be able to run dual discs.

The rear had a dust shield in it, but it also had old-style unsealed bearings. I have one in there for now, but....

....this spacer goes on the sprocket side and I'm not sure it will seat deep enough with the shield in there. If not, I'll remove it.

And on the other side (disc brake side....what would be the brake backing plate side), there's a metal type dust shield. We didn't install it yet because it might not be easy to pry out like the rubber shields. We'll figure out the proper spacers and then decide whether or not to run the shield.
I may use the spacer in this pic, or....

...use the stock spacer for the drum brake set-up. Again, won't know until we trial fit everything.

 

[scott s]

Went to Cardinal Rubber today and had them reproduce the rear hose (new one not pictured here). It only cost me $11.28!

 

[scott s]

When I first assembled the wheels, I used the rotors that came on them. The first time I trial fitted the front, I realized that the front XS500 rotor is smaller than the XS650. Swapped that out for the correct, larger rotor.

 

[scott s]

But I also realized I had another problem with the front.

Since the XS650 front wheel uses the same axle, bearings, spacers, speedo drive, etc., as the XS500, I just assumed that it would be a bolt on deal. Nope....no such luck.
After removing the fender, brace, caliper, etc., and trial fitting it several different ways, and taking several (admittedly, not super scientific) measurements, we finally came to see that the front hub on the Star/Pentagram wheel is narrower than the stock XS650 hub.

So, add some spacers, you say? Not quite so easy, as the speedo drive must seat up against the LH fork in order to "capture" it so that the gear drive works.
As you can see, there's a 10mm gap there.

And on the RH side, the rotor must center in the caliper, but the caliper is soild mounted to the fork.

This one was a bit of a head scratcher for a day or so. I knew I needed spacers, but how? Then my Dad mentioned spacing out the caliper. That makes perfect sense. I can see the "kit" coming with some 10mm spacers or bolts to move the caliper off the fork so that the speedo drive will engage.
The axle will be easy, and the lower bolt on the caliper shouldn't be a problem. The upper caliper mount is a stud, but we have an idea in mind.

The fact that the wheel is narrower is an oddity to me. I can't imagine that Yamaha/Shelby/whoever made these wheels, would have made different front wheels for the 500 vs. the 650.

For example, the Lester wheels for the Hondas are all the same on the front; the CB500/550/750 and even the GL1000 all use the same wheel. The rears are different because of brake backing plate differences and, for the GL1000, shaft drive.
I'm still not sure why the Pentagram is that way, but it's nothing we can't overcome. I just wasn't expecting it on the front. I knew we'd need spacers on the rear, since we're converting from drum to disc, but this one threw me for a loop.

And speaking of the rear....

 

[scott s]

The plan is to finish up the rear before tackling the front. We're only one spacer away from getting that done.
We still have to work on getting the master cylinder hooked up and working, too.

We mounted the master cylinder plate (had to slightly enlarge the hole for the passenger peg mount....I guess the XS500 uses a slightly smaller stud), and then we saw a couple more differences between the two bikes.

This is a picture of the M/C and actuating rod on the XS500:

The 500 obviously has the brake light switch mounted inside the frame or something. On the XS650, the switch is on the passenger peg mount. That caused it to interfere with the rod.

We were able to carefully bend the rod and get it to clear. However, that just revealed that the rod is too long for the XS650.

We tried several combinations of bending, moving stuff around, adjusting the brake pivot, etc. The rod is just too long. I think that we can save it by finding a smaller clevis. That's the plan for right now, anyway.
I'm just hoping that the brake hose I had made will work. It seems like it will, but too early to tell right now.

 

[scott s]

Does anyone know the differences in swing arm length, etc., between the 500 and 650? It's a little weird to me that this stuff is longer on the 500, unless it's just because the brake pivot is farther forward in the frame or something.

We used a combination of spacers we had to get the rear wheel on. The only one we're missing is one to go between the caliper holder and the chain adjuster/swing arm. I considered grinding down one I had, but I'm trying to NOT destroy any good parts or do anything that's not reversible. I don't plan on ever switching back to wire wheels but, some day, 30 years down the road, I don't want to be the P.O. that someone is cussing because I modded everything with a grinder and a BFH.

 

[scott s]

Anyway, here's sorta-kinda what an XS650 looks like with Pentagram wheels!

 

[deadchef]

they look bad ass! funny that they're gonna fight you tooth n nail. glad you're taking the time to document.

 

[XSFazz]

These look awesome!!! Nice work!

Man I really want a set of these now.

 

[scott s]

here's some fodder on the tube vs. tubeless debate...

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34728

i figure i'll run tubes. can't hurt...

BTW, I forgot to mention, we initially tried tubes because the shop I use didn't have valve stems that would fit the wheels. He was unable to get the beads to seat, so he ordered some valve stems that would fit and I ended up running them tubeless.
He thinks it's just the wheel/tire combo. He says he occasionally has troubles like that, especially some of the big 300 rear chopper tires.
Different tires may have been another story.

 

[turner]

Hey Scott, they look great sorry I haven't been on the site lately and I can help you with any other info . I sold the rest of the bike right after I shipped the wheels out . But I will try to attach a picture for you that nay help with you swing arm questions. It looks like lower strut arm is longer compared to axle on the 500 . Hope this helps . They do look good I'm glad your doing something with them . That was just another project I would have not gotten to for awhile

 

[turner]

trying to load pics hope this works

 

[turner]

trying to send ...

 

[scott s]

Hmmmm, yes....I see what you're talking about. That would position the caliper more upright, like I've seen in other pics.
I still am faced with the spacer dilemma, but I may look into swapping over an XS 500 torque arm. Probably need to see if I can get some measurements first.