Prevent PMA from Frying my PAMCO, AGAIN! ..

[cleoncleon]

Long story short, my PMA fried my Pacmo.

Running the Banshee Mod as opposed to the HHB kit.
- Banshee Flywheel
- VF500 Reg/Rect
- ZX6 Stator
- w/ SParx Cap.

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I've contacted Pete, solid dude, he's gonna help line me up with a new plate, but till that comes in.. How on earth did it happen???

NONE, of my fuses were blown.. Have one 20 amp fuse right BEFORE the capacitor and a 7.5 amp fuse before the ignition. Neither of them popped, and my Pamco fried.

So, I take it fuses don't necessarily look for spikes in voltage but in amperage?
How are your Banshee swapped systems not blasting your Pamco's to hell?
Im thinkin' I need a new regulator/Rectifier? seeing as that is what regulates the unused volts to heat..

The VF500 one seemed to work alright.
Like a dunce I didn't check charging volts on first startup with the voltmeter.. But, now that we know i'm charging excessively high. Is the regulator to blame?

That my VF500, I doubt it's my wiring, but, let me just make sure..
This Reg/Rect has two leads of Red cable and Two leads of Green, with one black in the middle. Black is unused. I'm assuming the each red/green pair in the hot/ground for both the Reg. mechanism and the Rect. mechanism.. I spliced the green together and grounded them. I spliced the red together and connected both to the 20 amp fuse line then that one line as a hot to the Capacitor.

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Using this diagram. Except I put a 20 amp fuse before the Cap. on one Hot Terminal prong, then used the other hot terminal prong to connect the system to the Cap. with.

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[ClOckwOrk]

I threw my pamco in the trash and went to a single point setup with the dual lobe. I also have an accel coil that can handle 18 volts so if a regulator goes again, I just lose my headlights and can still make it home

Posted via Mobile

 

[peanut]

did you follow all the instructions regarding operation ?
Caution:

1 Do not apply power until the installation is complete.

2 Do not apply power unless both spark plugs are connected.

Do not test for spark with one or both plugs disconnected.
Do not disconnect battery with engine running.
Ensure that the battery cable connections are secure.
Do not leave the ignition on when engine is not running.

Failure to follow these cautions may damage the system and render it inoperative.
http://www.yamahaxs650.com/installation.htm

 

[MFJustin]

I Reread your post multiple times just to make sure I was understanding it properly. You're saying you put the 20 amp fuse between the reg/rec and one of the positive posts on the cap and then ran another line from the second positive post on the cap to the rest of the system. If that's how you did it I believe the 20amp fuse is in the wrong spot, it's supposed to go between the capacitor and the key/ignition switch. I can't give you the full rundown of why but according to PamcoPete in another post, having the 20amp fuse between the reg/rec and cap does nothing to safeguard the rest of the system. Let me see if I can dig up that thread.

 

[cleoncleon]

I Reread your post multiple times just to make sure I was understanding it properly. You're saying you put the 20 amp fuse between the reg/rec and one of the positive posts on the cap and then ran another line from the second positive post on the cap to the rest of the system. If that's how you did it I believe the 20amp fuse is in the wrong spot, it's supposed to go between the capacitor and the key/ignition switch. I can't give you the full rundown of why but according to PamcoPete in another post, having the 20amp fuse between the reg/rec and cap does nothing to safeguard the rest of the system. Let me see if I can dig up that thread.

That's exactly what I did. It's wired in BEFORE the Cap..
You're saying it should be wired in after? That does make sense.. Should the Cap itself start pouring out extra voltage..

I read in another thread to wire it as such.. So, that is apparently wrong.
I figured a fuse before the Cap. would act as the safeguard for the whole system...

@Peanut, yeh, I do realize all of that. I was conscious of Pamco failure, it seems to be my misunderstanding of where to put the fuses, is the cause..

 

[MFJustin]

Found the thread for you, it can explain it better than I ever could.

I came across this while doing some research on installing a PMA and Pamco since that's where I am in my project. Fuse needs to go between the Cap and ignition switch/key. Not between the reg/Rec and cap.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23225&highlight=Wiring+PMA+pamco

 

[cleoncleon]

Found the thread for you, it can explain it better than I ever could.

I came across this while doing some research on installing a PMA and Pamco since that's where I am in my project. Fuse needs to go between the Cap and ignition switch/key. Not between the reg/Rec and cap.

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23225&highlight=Wiring+PMA+pamco

And that explains it... Having the Fuse before the Cap. is still an unprotected system..
Hmm.. But then should this solve my problem when the new Cap. comes in?? My voltage must have been high as some point regardless..

So, had i wired in the fuse correctly, with everything as it is now, the fuse would have blown then? Do i still need a new Reg/Rect.? surely just wiring in the Fuse as such (incorrectly, before the Cap.), didn't cause the power to spike, right? it was the Reg/Rect.. ?

 

[MFJustin]

Just noticed something else I may have overlooked while reading your initial post, the two green wires coming off of your reg/rec you grounded to the frame. The capacitor (depending on which one you are using, mine is a Sparx) should have three posts. You explained the two positive posts minus the fuse in the wrong place but did you ground the capacitor itself to a good frame ground as well?

 

[cleoncleon]

Just noticed something else I may have overlooked while reading your initial post, the two green wires coming off of your reg/rec you grounded to the frame. The capacitor (depending on which one you are using, mine is a Sparx) should have three posts. You explained the two positive posts minus the fuse in the wrong place but did you ground the capacitor itself to a good frame ground as well?

Yeah, the two green wires coming from the Reg/REct. I spliced together into one cable and ground that to the battery box, which is all steel, which is then hard mounted to the frame bare metal to metal.. The point where the box is connected to the frame is very close to the place where I bolted the grounds to. Should I Ground them directly to the frame?

The Capacitor has a dedicated line from the Negative terminal to the same ground point as that of the Reg/Rect..

Here's a pic: The battery box mounts to the single point, i sanded it clean and the point where it bolts down clean.. Bolts down to a 17mm bolt. My ground leads for the Cap and Reg/REct. bolt to the end of the screws that hold the box to the bracket itself.

Also . . Woul I have affected my Coil too? if the damage was enough to fry the Pamco?

srry for blurry pic..

 

[peanut]

nice box but yes you should definitely take your ground straight to the frame. The way you have done it there would be 2x fixing points where you could get increased electrical resistance over time instead of just the one.

 

[gggGary]

Key Point;
A fuse will do nothing to protect from excessive voltage, the fuse knows NOTHING about voltage, it could pass 200 volts with no issues.


Do you have and understand the wiring diagram from the bike the voltage regulator came from? "I have no idea but would guess" there is a reason the regulator has two reds and two greens. It is unusual for manufacturers to use "extra" parts for no reason.
A battery acts somewhat like a regulator in that it will "absorb and buffer" some excess voltage until it cooks from the abuse. A capacitor will do little in that regard. It would "absorb and level" very short spikes but a longer application of excessive voltage will just bring it's internal voltage up to match what the regulator allows until it's internal insulation breaks down, that point is probably way up there in volts. No electronics whiz am I but the smart guys should show up soon. Do you have a voltage meter or gauge? I would run the pamco off a separate (total loss for short periods would be fine) 12 volt battery WITH switch while sorting out the charging system. To your damage question yes both pamco and ignition coils can croak from excess voltage.
The old aviation saw applies here. Once you operate outside the engineered design parameters you are the test pilot. Results of such testing may be painful.
Good luck and please report your results so others can avoid the pain.

 

[Punkskalar]

gggGary is correct, what you need to do is find out how much voltage you are sending to the Cap/battery. It is likely that your regulator is not working properly..

 

[cleoncleon]

Key Point;
A fuse will do nothing to protect from excessive voltage, the fuse knows NOTHING about voltage, it could pass 200 volts with no issues.


Do you have and understand the wiring diagram from the bike the voltage regulator came from? "I have no idea but would guess" there is a reason the regulator has two reds and two greens. It is unusual for manufacturers to use "extra" parts for no reason.
A battery acts somewhat like a regulator in that it will "absorb and buffer" some excess voltage until it cooks from the abuse. A capacitor will do little in that regard. It would "absorb and level" very short spikes but a longer application of excessive voltage will just bring it's internal voltage up to match what the regulator allows until it's internal insulation breaks down, that point is probably way up there in volts. No electronics whiz am I but the smart guys should show up soon. Do you have a voltage meter or gauge? I would run the pamco off a separate (total loss for short periods would be fine) 12 volt battery WITH switch while sorting out the charging system. To your damage question yes both pamco and ignition coils can croak from excess voltage.
The old aviation saw applies here. Once you operate outside the engineered design parameters you are the test pilot. Results of such testing may be painful.
Good luck and please report your results so others can avoid the pain.

That's what i was thinking Gary, the fuses are different by the amount of AMPS they protect.. Amps aren't volts, which led me to the same conclusion, becuase if that were the case, the fuse would have still popped in that given spot.. So, besides the fuse being in the wrong place, my problem seems to be the Reg/Rect. then..

But it's been working for everyone else here that has used it, I dont see where it could be going wrong..

I do know how it work, i think..
Like on the picuter above, youll see it has teh standard 3 yellow wires, that's cake..

Not the other termainl is the Reds/Greens.. Look at how it looks.
Ive seen other Reg/Rects that share this setup, where the Reg and Rect. within the same unit has it's own leads..

I'm assuming the Red is the Regulator and the Red/White is the Rectifier.
The Green / Green white are the grounds to both..

So assuming this, I spliced the Red/R-W cable together and did the same for the Green cable leads.. The Reds are spled together and go to one Positive-Pole on the Capacitor.

The Greens are spliced together to a ring terminal and bolted down to ther ground.

The Negative -Pole on the Capacitor is a direct connection to a ring terminal and grounded as well.

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So far, this is what is to be corrected:

1. I need to move the 20A fuse from (Between Cap./Reg) to infront of it (Between Cap and Main Switch.

2. I need to ground the Ground leads directly to the Frame and not the Battery Box, as Peanut said.


But with all this.. I still feel like I'm going to fry another Pamco..

 

[cleoncleon]

@ Pete, it seems like that was the problem to begin with.. Bad Regulator..
from an old VF500.. hence, 'old'..

But i'm assuming you all can confirm how I wired it then?
w/ those double Red/Green leads.. seems to make sense.

Well, I will say it's annoying official.. Buying a full HHB PMA kit would have been cheaper.. especially now that I've blown a PAMCO.. For all starting a PMA, I strongly suggest getting a Kit. . Cost's more upfront, but you don't have to dick around, searching for a "cheap" Banshee Flywheel .. or use an OLD regulator.. fuck. Stator deffntly seems to be doing it's job lol.

Well, I just ordered HHB Reg/Rect.
With the adjustment of the two things above, hopefully this solves all this..

 

[Punkskalar]

I just saw your order come in, thanks for the biz

I really hope that gets your system straightened out, it should. Thanks again - and thanks to all of those who jumped in and helped him out - I've been SLAMMED building engines and missed this thread entirely until this morning...

 

[gggGary]

Yes you are right do not just add a fuse and try again it will fry more parts.

There are lot of regulators and at least several schemes for how they work. I have seen this issue before, using a random regulator that has "the right colors" doesn't regulate and ruins expensive parts. If you are going to go on down this path I would make a couple of suggestions.

1 keep the ignition components out of the charging system til you have it working reliably.
2 Use a banshee regulator or regulator that you KNOW is designed to work with the alternator you are using.
3 Monitor the charging system with a VOLT meter.
4 fuses protect against excessive amperage, they do nothing about high voltage. The regulator is the only part of the system that will control voltage.
5 Never pick a regulator by the color of the leads. Again there is VERY likely a reason the VF500 regular has two reds and greens like a circuit to a field coil that your banshee doesn't have....

I did not find an on line VF500 wiring diagram but I think some street Honda's of that era says used a field coil to control the alternator output.
I think you got this lesson but; mixing and matching electrical components is best left to guys with a deep understanding of the systems involved.

"some random guys" "working system report" is not a bullet proof wiring guide.

Hope you get to a working system and keep us informed on what happens.
Bully for you on the comment that buying a designed to work system is MUCH cheaper than it appears.

 

[MFJustin]

I just saw your order come in, thanks for the biz

I really hope that gets your system straightened out, it should. Thanks again - and thanks to all of those who jumped in and helped him out - I've been SLAMMED building engines and missed this thread entirely until this morning...

You get paid to play with these toys so being busy = fun, the rest of us use this place as a work time distraction haha

 

[cleoncleon]

So I got All the stuff in and hooked the PAMCO up to a battery.
I dont think Im using the Multimeter right... ?

Do I set it to DCV 20 or 200?

I have it at the 200 setting now I believe..
So far I turned the motor on and touching the tips of the Multimeter leads, I put the black lead on the Reg/Cap ground point. And the Red tester lead on the direct line from the Reg to Cap. (Before Cap, not after..)..

The volts were bouncing a bit, the highest number I saw was 15.0V dead on.
But I feel like I didn't test it correctly... Or atleats, I hope..
I believe Im to be around 14.3 - 14.7V's.

Any advice on where my tester should be set at as well as tips on checking the reg Voltage, is of neeeeeeed. Do test the voltage from the Cap. or the Regulator BEFORE the cap..?

-_-

Im so scared Im gonna fry it again lol.. I mean the other Reg was bad, and I had some off connections, and was still able to ride a bit, but , g@d damn! ..

 

[pamcopete]

cleoncleon,

You need to sit down and draw up a wiring diagram of your setup. It's not possible for us to help if we do not know how you have the bike wired, like, what does this mean? "And the Red tester lead on the direct line from the Reg to Cap. (Before Cap, not after..).. " ?

If you are going to test for 12 Volts, why would you use the 200 Volt scale instead of the 20 Volt scale? "I have it at the 200 setting now I believe.." There is some precision in electronics, although electronics can be quite forgiving, like you can wire something up all ass backwards and it will still work, for a while at least, as you have found out, so this time take your time and get it right. Give us more information so we can help you, starting with a wiring diagram.

 

[cleoncleon]

cleoncleon,

You need to sit down and draw up a wiring diagram of your setup. It's not possible for us to help if we do not know how you have the bike wired, like, what does this mean? "And the Red tester lead on the direct line from the Reg to Cap. (Before Cap, not after..).. " ?

If you are going to test for 12 Volts, why would you use the 200 Volt scale instead of the 20 Volt scale? "I have it at the 200 setting now I believe.." There is some precision in electronics, although electronics can be quite forgiving, like you can wire something up all ass backwards and it will still work, for a while at least, as you have found out, so this time take your time and get it right. Give us more information so we can help you, starting with a wiring diagram.

... Well, slap my hand once or twice!
Im using the this schematic.. : haha, I guess I just assumed everyone running PMA's wired it up this way.. Sorry!

As for the Multimeter.. I have never even touched one till today, forgive my insufficnet knowledge on it. it looks confusing to me.. Lot of symbols and such that I'm not experienced with, Pete.. That's why i asked on some advice as to what setting it should be at.. I know a little more than I may appear to know.. Im just scared of a $100 dollar bill for another fried ignition, good sir.

But yes, Im running it off a battery and not doing much till I get the charging system squared away.. I hope you assume im trying really really hard to not fry another ignition.

As for the Red/Black leads, I'm talking about the tester leads off the multimeter. I said I poked the black lead to the reg/Cap ground and the red i poked at the Regulator Lead before the Cap.. Just trying to make sure Im touching.testing the right stuff...

I guess, all i need to know is, if im testing correctly.
I think where im testing the Reg is OK.
but Multimeter setting, not so sure..