Re-torqued head, bike won't fire.

[TeeCat]

Hi, Pete, thanks for responding.

Okay, here's what I know:

- I have 11.6 or so volts coming off the red wire that would connect to the + on the coil (headlight comes on with key, so that explains why it's just under 12). So I'm thinking the PAMCO itself is okay.

- This looks like the coil I'm using...

...one of the first Mike's ones when you first started selling these units; it's about two years old... maybe a touch more. I was suspecting the coil at this juncture because, though the work I did would not have cause it to short out, earlier this season I gapped my Iridiums to .035 based on a discussion here. I read recently where a larger gap could cause a coil to push its envelope and possibly shit the bed. So I'm wondering if this could could have failed because of something like that, or some other factor.

That said, if the PAMCO is good, as I think it is, the coil is really the only other suspect, right? So I'm a bit dumbfuddled still.

 

[pamcopete]

TeeCat,

Opening the plug gap is not going to affect the coil. I don't have one of those coils around here anymore, but it could be that it's secondary resistance is as you measured it unless you measured the resistance through the plug caps and the plug caps are resistor type.

 

[ippytattoo]

Correct me if I am wrong here but the red wire is what supplies power to the pamco and ties into the power for the coil. The green (white) wire is what makes or breaks to primary side of the coil to ground and causes the magnetic field to collapse which generates the secondary voltage and spark. To test and make sure you did not break a wire in the PAMCO harness you could do a voltage test at the red wire on the PAMCO circuit board and do a resistance test to both ends of the green (white) wire, 1 on the circuit board and the other end at the coil. Also do a resistance test from the black on the circuit board to ground. On the red you should have battery voltage, on the two ends of the black and green (white) you should have no resistance. If that checks out you could check for spark without turning the motor over as Pete suggested by removing the locating pin for the rotor.

 

[TeeCat]

Correct me if I am wrong here but the red wire is what supplies power to the pamco and ties into the power for the coil. The green (white) wire is what makes or breaks to primary side of the coil to ground and causes the magnetic field to collapse which generates the secondary voltage and spark. To test and make sure you did not break a wire in the PAMCO harness you could do a voltage test at the red wire on the PAMCO circuit board and do a resistance test to both ends of the green (white) wire, 1 on the circuit board and the other end at the coil. Also do a resistance test from the black on the circuit board to ground. On the red you should have battery voltage, on the two ends of the black and green (white) you should have no resistance. If that checks out you could check for spark without turning the motor over as Pete suggested by removing the locating pin for the rotor.

ippy, thanks, I didn't do any of that, except to test that I had voltage at the terminal which connects the red wire to the + primary on the coil. I'll have to go back out tonight or tomorrow and try your tests.

Now, on the voltage test AT the PAMCO board... I set my meter to ?20?V(DC), turn the key and kill on, touch the black probe to a ground, and the red one to where the red wire on the PAMCO is soldered to the board. Correct? I don't want to create a problem where there is none. But if I did break that green wire, at least I could fix that.

I think I follow you on the resistance test, except which value to I use on the resistance scale?

Thank you again!

TC

 

[TeeCat]

ippy...

Still have not done the voltage test AT the board for the red wire, so I still do need the info on that I asked about, BUT:

I went out and did the resistance tests on the green and black wires. The board end of the black wire was really hard to get to - it just barely peeks out where it's soldered to the board soooo close to the other two wires - but I tested from the board end of it to where it's attached to ground. Three tests on it yielded a 1. BUT...

When I did the green wire on each end, the meter went apeshit. Three times. All over the map.

So, might I be looking at a broken green wire? If so, at least I can clip the terminals off the coil end of the wires, solder that, I think, and then reinstall new terminals. What do you think?

TC

 

[ippytattoo]

What do you get if you touch the 2 leads of the multimeter together on any resitance scale? It should be at or very close to zero. It sounds like you may have a broken ground wire for the pamco.

 

[TeeCat]

I'd have to check that, ippy. But just so I understand you, are you suggesting that the black wire may be broken, or the green one? And is there now no need to do the voltage test on the red?

Regardless of whether it's black or green, do you think it's time for me to get that sheath off the PAMCO harness and physically inspect for damage? Such vastly different readings on the black and green seem like a giveaway to me.

TC

 

[ippytattoo]

It's a possiblity if when your meter reads 1. it is indicating an open circuit then the black wire has a break in it. With the green wire showing some kind of reading I am leaning more towards the black which is the ground for the pamco. We just need to have a reference for comparison which would be putting the 2 leads of the meter together.

 

[TeeCat]

ippy... just checked. Resistance scale: At 20k, for instance, it settles at 0. At 200, it finally settles at around 1.1 or so.

If you think this may be the culprit, tomorrow I'll get that sheath off of there and look for a compromise in the insulation of the green or black... whichever.

And thank you so much, by the way. This has been giving me fits.

TC

 

[pamcopete]

TeeCat,

Look, this is getting way more complicate than it is. Fast forward and do the spin the rotor test. If you get spark, then look elsewhere for the problem.

1. The black wire to ground does not really matter. The plate gets a ground from the hold down screws. The black wire is really there to provide a ground when adjusting the plate.

2. The green wire will show battery voltage or ground, just like a set of points. As you rotate the rotor, you should see alternating ground and then battery on the green wire.

3. I think that you are getting weird readings on your meter because you have it set to the Ohms scale when there is power applied. You cannot read Ohms with power on the circuit.

 

[TeeCat]

Hi, Pete -

I have not been applying any power at all when doing tests on the ohms scale... only on the voltage scale.

Fast forward and do the spin the rotor test. If you get spark, then look elsewhere for the problem.

Pete, I can try that tomorrow, but even if I get a spark, I'm running out of "elsewheres" to look. I'm not an electrician or an engineer. I'm just trying to run this gremlin into a corner and kill it. There is a finite set of variables here. Those resistance readings must mean something.

As you rotate the rotor, you should see alternating ground and then battery on the green wire.

I think this is a matter of thinking/communication styles, Pete. The above doesn't mean anything to me. It's the equivalent of my saying to you, "Well, you see, bi-polar depression and borderline personality disorder are similar, but different." I don't "get" the theory behind all of this, so it's hard for me to comprehend it in practice. I'm looking for an absolute to eliminate. And there are only so many of those between the battery voltage and the coil, which seems to be okay.

Please forgive my frustration, but this is making me want to open a vein!

 

[xjwmx]

I think this is a matter of thinking/communication styles, Pete. The above doesn't mean anything to me.

Hand Puppet 1: "Clip a probe on the green wire and the other probe on ground."

Hand Puppet 2: Yeah, and as you turn the rotor you should see ~+12 and then ~0 on the meter."

 

[TeeCat]

Hand Puppet 1: "Clip a probe on the green wire and the other probe on ground."

Hand Puppet 2: Yeah, and as you turn the rotor you should see ~+12 and then ~0 on the meter."

Hand Puppet 1: "My teenager is slicing herself to pieces with any sharp implement available."

Hand Puppet 2: "Then there must be a problem somewhere."

We all have our talents. Mine is not electronics. It's reclaiming badly damaged lives using little more than specialized patience, expertise, compassion, and written English. If you can't contribute meaningfully toward my finding a solution to the presenting problem, then I'll thank you not to post in this thread.

 

[xjwmx]

you can't contribute meaningfully toward my finding a solution to the presenting problem, then I'll thank you not to post in this thread.

I answered the question you asked. What could be more meaningful? If you addressed your ego issue, you'd be a more effective counselor.

 

[hmusket]

TeeCat, it may not seem relevant to you at this point, when you are still trying to sort out your bike's problem, plus dealing with the other issues in your life, but I see this turning into a good trouble-shooting thread.

The way I understand PamcoPete's system is that it is an electronic substitute for the mechanical points system. It powers the coil until a sensor interrupts the power for a millisecond. During that power interruption the coil discharges its high voltage electricity through the spark plug wire to the spark plug creating the spark at the right time in the cylinder.

I think the rotation test that Pete is asking you to do is to see if the sensor is doing its job, turning the electricity to the coil on and off. And as Xjwmx was getting at, you'll see your multimeter shifting between twelve volts (or your battery voltage) and 0.

If it passes this test, then the next step, I think, would be to do the test suggested in Pete's post for testing the Pamco, post #23.

One thing I didn't see in the thread, have you verified gas is getting past the carbs to the cylinders?

Good luck, I'm sure we'll see a positive resoulution, plus add a bit a bit more to the knowledge pool.

 

[TeeCat]

Hi, musket... thanks for chiming in with additional insight/info.

(By the way, I do have fuel flow, but definitely no spark on the test plug hooked up to either side.)

I think the rotation test that Pete is asking you to do is to see if the sensor is doing its job, turning the electricity to the coil on and off.

Now, put in those terms, that part makes sense. Where I'm hung up, though, is that even if the rotor/sensor is working as expected, I have already done the PAMCO test in Pete's earlier post by checking for voltage on the red wire, which I have. So this leaves me wondering, I suppose, what is next if the sensor is working? It just seems as if I'm running out of stones to turn, if you will.

Tomorrow, I'll try to get the rotor off and take the pin out, and turn it. I remember that booger going on on pretty tight when I installed it, so hopefully I'll not have trouble getting it off the pin/rod after 2-ish years...

TC

 

[5twins]

Take the little disc off the other side instead, the one that ties the advance rod into the advance unit. Then you can spin the Pamco rotor and do the test.

 

[TeeCat]

twins, I'd forgotten all about that, thanks. I had that off when I replaced my ATU, so that should not be a problem.

I plan to get out there and continue working on this more today. Will advise.

 

[XSLeo]

Would a discription of how ignitions function help?
All ignitions no matter the type just turn the current flow through the primary side of the coil on and off.
With the Pamco. Power goes into the coil on the red wire, out on the green wire. In the Pamco the transister is turned on or off by the signal from the pick up that gets triggered by the magnets in the rotor. While the transister is "on" power flows through the coil because the transister hooks the green wire to ground. While the green wire is grounded you will get no voltage reading on the green wire.
When the transister is "off" the green wire has no ground, power wont flow and you will get a voltage on the green wire.
Now with the leads of your meter, black to ground, red to the green wire. and power turned on, spin the Pamco rotor. When the transister is "on" you wil get no voltage, when the transister is "off" then you will get voltage. As you turn the rotor the voltage will jump from 0 to battery voltage, then back to 0 then battery voltage. Going back and forth as the tansister turns on/off.
If this happens then the Pamco and wiring is ok.
Check the coil ohms, primary around 2.5 ohms, secondary around 10k to 15 k, higher if you test from cap to cap. Around 10k more.
Points and TCI will do the same.
Leo

 

[TeeCat]

Hi, Leo... yes, it helps somewhat in terms of general understanding, thanks. The hard part for me is applying it to the diagnostics. (Why can't you make this easy and live in Maryland? )

Okay:

Preliminarily, I double checked just to be sure, and am getting just under 12V at the red wire (remember, my headlight comes on with the key).

Then I took the little cam out on the ATU side so I could spin the rotor. With the primary wires disconnected (can't get probes to them otherwise), I grounded the meter and probed the green wire while turning the rotor, with the key and kill switch ON. I had the meter set on 20 on the DC voltage scale (right?), and there was life, but the meter would alternately display 0 and 2. I tried different DC scales but never got anything approaching 12. Might be operator error? I ask that because:

I did the same test, but in the dark and with the test plug instead of a meter. Very discernible white spark on both sides when tested.

So I suppose I'm both relieved and puzzled. Why am I getting a spark when operating the rotor manually, but not in the "real world" scenario? This is where the logic tree stumps me. (Tree? Stumps? Funny, TC, funny. )