Safety Relay question

[uebe]

I'm laying out a new, simplified wiring harness for my '83 SK. It's a basket case so a number of electrical components are missing. Among the missing is the starter safety cutoff relay. I've been using one of the simplified wiring diagrams on this site and it includes the relay - I'm wondering if it's something else I could eliminate. The stock diagram shows it connects to the headlight relay and the clutch switch. Can I eliminate this item?

 

[retiredgentleman]

I'm laying out a new, simplified wiring harness for my '83 SK. It's a basket case so a number of electrical components are missing. Among the missing is the starter safety cutoff relay. I've been using one of the simplified wiring diagrams on this site and it includes the relay - I'm wondering if it's something else I could eliminate. The stock diagram shows it connects to the headlight relay and the clutch switch. Can I eliminate this item?

Yes, you can eliminate that relay. You will need to join the the 2 red/white wires that are in the 4 pin connector.

You will lose the clutch and neutral interlock features, for the starter motor.

I don't have those interlocks on my 78SE, and I've always thought they were overkill anyway.

 

[uebe]

Thanks RG!

I'm curious.............did you rewire your '78 complete, or just portions?

( I also lucked into a 1980, but the harness needs a lot of love.)

 

[retiredgentleman]

Thanks RG!

I'm curious.............did you rewire your '78 complete, or just portions?

( I also lucked into a 1980, but the harness needs a lot of love.)

I have not done a complete rewire. The wiring on my bike was unmolested by PO's. I have only rewired where I have changed components, such as the rectifier, regulator, ignition coil, Pamco, and LED taillight.

However, every connector has been taken apart and connector pins cleaned. That's very important to do.

 

[5twins]

What you will lose is the safety cut-off feature. That means that if you accidentally hit the starter button while the motor is running, the starter WILL try to engage. Tooling down the highway at 50 or 60 MPH and having that happen probably won't be a pretty picture, lol. I can't say what the extent of the damage may be but I can say I wouldn't like to find out.

 

[retiredgentleman]

What you will lose is the safety cut-off feature. That means that if you accidentally hit the starter button while the motor is running, the starter WILL try to engage. Tooling down the highway at 50 or 60 MPH and having that happen probably won't be a pretty picture, lol. I can't say what the extent of the damage may be but I can say I wouldn't like to find out.

I believe uebe was referring to the Starting Cutoff Relay. It only controls interlocks for the clutch and neutral switch.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi uebe,
the '83 has two safety relays (there's 2 tin humps in a single module) one stops the starter from operating while the engine is running and t'other turns the headlight on for you when the engine starts.
Best you keep them both. Without them you could engage the starter when the engine is running and have the headlight coming on with the key so the battery had even more draw on it when you try to e-start.
OK if you add a headlight on/off switch you could do without the auto-on relay but keep the starter safety relay, eh?
The clutch switch won't let the starter motor run unless the clutch is pulled?
Only a total dolt needs one of those.

 

[retiredgentleman]

fredintoon and 5twins;

You're both talking about the Safety Relay. Its operation is controlled from the alternator voltage being present (yellow wire) after the engine starts.

uebe is taliking about the Starting Cutoff Relay, also known as the Starter Lockout Relay. Its controlled from the clutch being pulled, or the transmission in neutral.

These are not the same relays. The Starter Cutoff Relay first appeared on 1981 and continued on until they stopped making these bikes.

Safety Relays were used from 1972 to 1983/84. Starter Cutoff Relays were only used from 1981 to 1983/84.

 

[fredintoon]

uebe is talking about the Starting Cutoff Relay, also known as the Starter Lockout Relay. Its controlled from the clutch being pulled, or the transmission in neutral.
These are not the same relays. The Starter Cutoff Relay first appeared on 1981 and continued on until they stopped making these bikes.
Safety Relays were used from 1972 to 1983/84. Starter Cutoff Relays were only used from 1981 to 1983/84.

Hi RG,
thing is, my Canadian model '84 Heritage Special's e-start won't turn unless the tranny is in neutral BUT there ain't no clutch lever operation involved.
Turn the key and push the button and if the green light is on she'll crank and may even condescend to start.
Been like that since I bought it new.
Mind you, it does have the sidestand cut-out switch.
One week into my ownership and lost the sidestand return spring to an offroad detour.
Took me a long and frustrating WTF? moment to deduce why it'd start perfectly then quit when put in gear.
Had to borrow my passenger's shoelace to tie the sidestand up so we could ride home.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Fred;
"thing is, my Canadian model '84 Heritage Special's e-start won't turn unless the tranny is in neutral BUT there ain't no clutch lever operation involved. "

Have you ever had the bike in gear,such as if you stall the bike when in first gear, pulled the clutch, and then started the bike with the black button? Are you saying it must be in neutral?

 

[fredintoon]

- - - Have you ever had the bike in gear,such as if you stall the bike when in first gear, pulled the clutch, and then started the bike with the black button? Are you saying it must be in neutral?

Hi RG,
yes, that's what I'm saying.
With the green neutral light on pushing the starter button cranks the starter.
Click it into gear, push the button and nada.
My bike's clutch lever post has the hole where a switch should be but it's empty.
Bike came new that way.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi RG,
yes, that's what I'm saying.
With the green neutral light on pushing the starter button cranks the starter.
Click it into gear, push the button and nada.
My bike's clutch lever post has the hole where a switch should be but it's empty.
Bike came new that way.

Well that is interesting. On every other year except the 1984, you can pull the clutch lever and then start up, while in gear, using the black button.

 

[fredintoon]

Well that is interesting. On every other year except the 1984, you can pull the clutch lever and then start up, while in gear, using the black button.

Hi RG,
are we talking about the same button?
I'm talking about the starter button on the twistgrip just under the killswitch.
And it's red.
Next time I'm over to his place I will check out my son's 1980 Special to see what it's got.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Youse guyz are reminding me of this post:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showpost.php?p=378936&postcount=5

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi RG,
are we talking about the same button?
I'm talking about the starter button on the twistgrip just under the killswitch.
And it's red.
Next time I'm over to his place I will check out my son's 1980 Special to see what it's got.

There's only one button on the right handlebar, and its always black as far as I know. Your 1984 must be the only year with a red button

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi RG,
yes, that's what I'm saying.
With the green neutral light on pushing the starter button cranks the starter.
Click it into gear, push the button and nada.
My bike's clutch lever post has the hole where a switch should be but it's empty.
Bike came new that way.

That's a bit of a disadvantage. If you stall in the middle of an intersection, its simpler to just pull in the clutch and hit the black (or red in your case) button, without having to select neutral.

If you wanted to go that route, you could remove the Starter Cutoff Relay (Starter Lockout Relay).

 

[retiredgentleman]

Youse guyz are reminding me of this post:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showpost.php?p=378936&postcount=5

No, there's no way for the neutral indicating light/diode to drain via the Starter Lockouy Relay, because the diode prevents that.

It was found a number of years ago, that the wiring diagram posted in the Haynes Manual, as Fig 7.24, has a couple of errors in it. Here is a corrected diagram.

 

[uebe]

RG - thanks for the updated wire diagram. My manual has been updated.

I will be leaving out the safety circuit, (and whatever other bits I can leave out)

I've got the ignition/charging circuit laid out and I'm onto the lighting etc.

 

[nj1639]

No, there's no way for the neutral indicating light/diode to drain via the Starter Lockouy Relay, because the diode prevents that.

It was found a number of years ago, that the wiring diagram posted in the Haynes Manual, as Fig 7.24, has a couple of errors in it. Here is a corrected diagram.

I bypassed the starter lockout relay on my '83 some time ago.
It's so much better to be able to pull the clutch lever and hit the chrome starter button in any gear.....;-)

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...It was found a number of years ago, that the wiring diagram posted in the Haynes Manual, as Fig 7.24, has a couple of errors in it. Here is a corrected diagram.

Well, THAT certainly makes sense. The original diagram shows no provision for power to initially close the relay! Thanx, RG, I've corrected that other post with your revised schematic...