Solar freakin Roadways

[weekendrider]

Ok the marketing IS remarkable. So some of my excitement may influenced.
BUT what if it is viable? I would hate to be on the trailing end of the movement.
I'm wanting for the IPO announcement. . . . cause yeah I could support this.
Something has be figured out. And the people making money with the current methods
have no motivation to change.

 

[EvenmoreXS]

where there's a will, there's a way...

Time will tell....

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yes, solar PV energy production is the future. However, it will take a long time for solar PV to reach any large scale. Exxon Mobil, Shell, BP and similar companies will have their lobbyists in Washington fight this tooth and nail.

There has to be strong political will to make solar power happen. Germany is a leading example of what can be done, if the politians listen to what the people want.

 

[mathil]

Solar roadways is the perfect example of a con job. Take something people WANT, but don't UNDERSTAND, and then appeal to their altruism to get them to PAY you.

Before putting solar panels on the absolute hardest place, why not put them on easy places, like, you know, roofs.

Their claims about melting snow leave out the fact that the solar panels themselves in no way make near enough power for snow melt. Not to mention snow falls in high latitudes where the sun barely shines.

The ability to change road markings is cool, but in no way necessary for the vast majority of places. Bridges and tunnels with counter flow, sure, but that can be done easier and cheaper other ways.

The inventor actually advocates DC power distribution. If that's not the worst idea since Tesla showed us AC power is better for transmission, I don't know what is... Voltage drop in DC comes into play over the short distances of motorcycle wiring; it's even worse from the relatively small distance from the street to the doorstep.

All in all, anyone doing an even small amount of research on PV can see that they're not only putting forward a bad idea, but also straight up lying about their capabilities.

Yeah, I'm sure in 2099 we'll have solar generators all over the place, but our current tech makes this a bad idea, for the foreseeable future.

 

[mathil]

Another thing I caution about is listening to the soundbites about how "Germany makes 50% of its power by solar energy!!!"

No, they do not. On one day, in the summer, during the day, they made 50% of demand.

Overall, measured in KW/hrs, solar accounts for only 5% of the electricity Germany uses. Why? Panels are actually cheap, compared to storage systems. Sure, you can make all the power you want during the day, but if you can't store it for the night, you still need some other form of power.

Here's an article that explains it a bit. http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/germany-hits-50-percent-solar-ireland-50-percent-wind-30585


All in all, as always, never ever believe what "the news" tells you. When it's good, it's too good to be true. When it's bad, it's usually sensationalized to be much worse than it actually is.

 

[retiredgentleman]

mathil...................do you work for the oil and gas industry by any chance?

Yes indeed, many reporters/newspapers/TV news shows, like to cherry pick facts that are out of context. Intelligent individuals should be able to sort out the truth for themselves.

Solar roadways..............bad idea. Solar PV panels on factory roofs and house roofs..............very good idea.

If you see the pollution in Chinese cities that comes from coal fired generating stations and from manufacturing plants, you must realize the huge benefit solar generation can be.

Solar power cannot be the total solution, but it can be part of the solution. PV solar power, obviously can only be a day time peaking power for now. For the forseeable future, Hydraulic, nuclear, wind, biomass, and gas fired generation will supply the base load, with solar PV adding whatever amount it can. Coal generation will be phased out slowly, as its just too dirty. Of course the coal industry will fight this, but the writing is on the wall, and their days are numbered.

Germany has a lot to be proud of. They found a way called "feed in tariff", that allowed the solar PV industry to grow rapidly.

When I was in southern Germany, a few years ago, I saw a very large number of roof top
solar panels. They are doing the right thing now, while the rest of the world is only slowly waking up to the need for cleaner air.

 

[azman857]

Around here, solar power is growing by leaps and bounds. On the plus side, it's bringing in covered parking. Solar farms are springing up all over the place. Solar panels are showing up on rooftops of new construction houses. Existing houses and business are being refitted with solar panels. 350+ days of sun a year makes sense.

 

[mathil]

I'm not an oil industry person; I build pop top campers on efficient Japanese minivan chassis' as an alternative to gas guzzling A class motor homes. I have firsthand knowledge of wiring an entire solar system from panel to regulator to storage to inverter.

The point in trying to make, and which the article makes quite well, is that even if Germany doubles it's solar capacity to meet 100% of peak demand in the middle of the day they'll still only meet 10% of their yearly energy usage. That is, UNLESS they create a massive electrical storage infrastructure. The storage problem is what makes solar so shitty for massive grid style electrical utility.

I'm all for people putting solar panels on their roofs, maintaining a battery bank and using an inverter system to meet their household needs. That kind of distributed network is great. However, most people don't have the 30k up front to drop on a system, and they won't see a return on that investment for 15 years.

What I feel the need to do is to interject a little realism into the bleary eyes of the recently solar converted. Most people don't know ohms law, what TSI is, how PV systems work, etc. They have to rely on media reports about it, and frankly, the media lies.

Another country of note is France. They don't pump out much CO2, and that's because they decided nuclear was the best option. Sure, it creates nuclear waste, but in actual fact it's a very physically small amount and no problem to store until we figure out how best to get rid of it.

My personal opinion is that we just need a sort of bridge for the next 50 years or so until fusion is economical. We've reached the step where we get more power than we put in, and now we need to make it cheap. The problem is that few want to fund the research because it's still a long bet... 50 years.

Of course coal is dirty, and of course China's going to burn it. They have the biggest growing middle class, and they feel it's now their turn for a little prosperity at the expense of the planet. The best thing we can do is ship them natural gas instead...

I also don't see how you can call me out for an oil industry shill when I only made perfectly valid, and more importantly, perfectly true statements. Care Bears and hopes and dreams won't bring progress about; identifying the real problems and aiming to fix them will...

 

[retiredgentleman]

mathil............thank you for building efficient campers, and using solar as well.

I agree that storage is a limitation for solar PV generation. However, I still see solar PV as a good thing, by making a healthy contribution to the daily peak load. I don't think its fair to say that solar PV is "shitty for massive grid style electrical utility".

I read somewhere that Hawaii, uses diesel fuel to generate 90% of its electricity. Surely, solar PV and wind power would be a big improvement to reduce burning diesel.

Yes solar is expensive to install. Thanks to Germany showing the way with the "feed in tariff" model, other countries, including European countries, USA and even Canada, have found a way to fund solar PV systems.

We're singing from the same hymn book as far as Nuclear power. I worked in Nuclear generating stations for 18 years, in Ontario, Canada. France is a world leader in that industry. Yes, nuclear waste is small and can be managed with no problems.

China has a huge task ahead, to try to reduce its pollution. Its people are getting sick and some are dying from the pollution. The Nuclear disaster in Japan slowed down their Nuclear plant buliding schedule, but they have now said they are once again increasing construction of new Nuclear generating units. Unfortunately, they still generate a very large portion of their electricity from coal.

My apology, I did not mean to link you to the oil industry.

 

[weekendrider]

Their claims about melting snow leave out the fact that the solar panels themselves in no way make near enough power for snow melt. Not to mention snow falls in high latitudes where the sun barely shines.

First I will say you present your points quite convincingly.
Second yes the marketing is slick.
I'd would like to ask this. Why is it after a snow fall (ours are measured in inchs not feet) why is it the glass items will show first in the road ditch?

As far as laying them on the ground instead of raising them to roof level.
It seems to me you would spend extra for the support on a roof. That cost could be negated by using the ground.
Here large amounts of ground are covered by school parking lots. Lots that are empty during the prime solar creation times(summer break).

The problem with DC transmission. If problems arise trying to transfer DC why do the large offshore turbines convert to DC to transfer the power from the turbine to the grid? Then back to AC at the grid.
I used to roughneck. In the 70's rigs were converting from belt transferred power to DC direct motor drives. To supply that power we ran 2 of the 4 large generators which powered the "bus" for the converted electricity. It seems AC and variable speed motors don't play well together for the long game.

All in all the biggest problem I see is the one the little bride pointed out.
How are they going to keep folks from tearing them up to scrap the materials???

No schooling, just some cow lot observations.

@RG along with the mess they have with smog, China has created a water crisis with it's hydro electric programs. And the effects of that will soon be a larger concern than, will the lights come on(?).

 

[mathil]

Laying the panels on the ground SOUNDS like it would be easy right? Just drop it down... It's done! No, it doesn't work that way.

Basically they want to tile the road. The tiles need a substrate to sit on that's firm, unmoving, and has a way to affix (bolt) the panels down. That's already way, way more work than running an asphalt grind/mill/pave train over the road surface. Furthermore, roads settle, and the differential settling of the tiles will play havoc with the connections between tiles. How often have you seen a wavy, bumpy road? Imagine trying to tile it, all while making electrical connections that can withstand the settling.. You can see how paving a regular road and then affixing a platform above it would be easier, cheaper, and faster. That still doesn't get to the issue though, which is we have plenty of non horizontal surfaces that we could easily plaster in PV panels for less money and better solar collection. Arguing about the best way to put solar on roads is just arguing about the best way to implement a bad idea.

I would guess that you see glass bottles first in the ditch because glass is slippery and the snow slides off of it before it has a chance to melt, showing the bottle. Glass is also slippery, making it a terrible road surface.

I don't know the specific reasons for offshore turbines transmitting DC, but if I had to guess it would be that HVDC is more suitable for undersea transmission, and that it's good in transmitting large amounts of power point to point without any taps on it. Regardless of whether we could build a national DC power system or not, the fact is that everything we use runs on standard AC voltages, the same as everywhere in the world. Imagine the waste, and the extra retooling cost for every household for every item that plugs into the wall. That or each house gets a large inverter, in which case you have to ask why you're distributing DC instead of AC. There's a good reasons AC is used worldwide for power distribution, it's not like the Betamax vs VHS debate...

It's just a bad idea all around; there's a reason they don't have real utility companies knocking on their door to buy them out.

 

[weekendrider]

mathil, Thanks for the responses and being the devils advocate. Enjoyed your posts.

 

[retiredgentleman]

When transmitting HVAC, capacitance and inductance starts to become a problem. Because AC is constantly changing polarity at 60 hz, some of the energy is lost due to reactance. You put in X amount of watts at one end but only get X minus the loss at the other end.

With HVDC you don't have any capacitance or inductance losses. Also the DC conductors are better at carrying a given amount of current, as compared to AC.

Even with the extra cost of converter/inverters at each end, HVDC works out to be more efficient for long distance and undersea transmission.