Starter bendix engages and then disengages ?

[Ronnie_D]

Hello guys,
I am restoring a 1983 Heritage Special. Working on the last of the problems on the bike.

I need some help with this problem.

When the starter bendix engages the main gear it turns the engine over a few spins but then the bendix gear jumps out and then jumps back in, making a bad grinding noise as it does this.and then the engine turns over a few spins more and then it does the same jumping out.

I did the "squeeze the spring clip trick" and also reversed the gear due to some teeth wear, this solved the initial problem of the starter not engaging every time. But now this engaging and disengaging issue is happening.

I am not sure why this is happening, any ideas why would be greatly appreciated.

cheers,
Ronnie.

 

[5twins]

I've never heard of anyone reversing the gear. I didn't think that was possible. Maybe that's the problem. Slightly worn teeth won't hurt anything. They all get like that eventually.

 

[Ronnie_D]

Hi 5twins,

I watched a video on youtube and the guy gave the c clip a bend in the vice and then he reversed the #4 gear so the good side was now in use. He said it worked fine. I tried the standard way and then the reversed way and the same popping out was still there. I watched another video and this guy had the same problem I have and he ended up putting in a new battery and that fixed the popping out problem. I know my battery is sitting at 12.4 volts or less. I am going to try a boost battery and see how that goes today.

thanks for your reply,

Ronnie.

 

[weekendrider]

So the clip, normally on the outboard side is now on the inboard side? Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[Ronnie_D]

Yes, the clip is on the inboard side. He reversed the #4 gear on the shaft. which makes the teeth engage a litttle deeper on the flywheel and the new side of teeth on #4 gear is engaging flywheel.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Sorry, not my department, but may I recommend for those that experience starter skipping, inspect the absorbers, part #19, for hardness. P/N 306-15571-00. They (6) should be soft/compressable/flexy to absorb and rebound the varying speeds of the crankshaft, as it approaches and passes TDC...

 

[Ronnie_D]

thank you 2M

 

[kshansen]

2M,

OK, now for the next question.

Anyone know where to buy these absorbers? Seem to be NLA.

Any one know of a homemade solution?

 

[peanut]

the voltage of your battery is not such an important factor for powering a starter motor , its the battery capacity in Amps that matters.
You should get your battery ' load tested ' so that you can compare the battery's cold cranking Amps ( CCA ) and reserve capacity (RC) to spec.
Starter motor bendix bouncing in and out of engagement is a common result of a battery with poor cranking capacity . The power of the battery is insufficient to maintain continuous engagement against the return spring .

It wouldn't hurt to strip and clean your starter motor commutator and replace the brushes etc . From memory I believe you'll need 2x oil seals but 2M's diagram should confirm

 

[angus67]

Carbon build up from the brushes to the comutater can hinder performance. I had a starter on a cheap Chinese dirt bike that had issues. Cleaned off the carbon, reversed brushes for new face, problem solved.

 

[MaxPete]

Ronny - did you do the "fish scale" pull test on the hairpin spring?

It has been found that if the "pull force" is less that about 6 lbs, the starter will not engage properly. The squeeze trick often works but if the spring has already been squeezed or if it is one of the earlier parts or a cheapie aftermarket spring made of thinner wire, you might have to get a new one - just be sure to check it BEFORE installing it. A good hairpin spring is VERY tight on the starter gear - to the point where you can hardly move it with your hand.

This entire starter gnashing noise issue is a very common XS650 problem and many people have written about it. There is a YouTube video on-line - but the guy who shot it makes an error in fitting the "hairpin clip" into the little pocket in the engine casting. While that pocket was originally used on the first couple of years for that hairpin spring, Yamaha issued a correction to the manual at some point in the 1974-77 period. The correct position for the hairpin spring is forward of the pocket - not in it.

I did a fair bit of work on this "hairpin spring pull test" in my build thread - here is a linky: http://www.xs650.com/threads/build-thread-special-to-cafe-bike.48165/
....and the relevant posts are numbers: 257, 279, 282 and 288.

...and attached is a note that I got off the web and turned into a .pdf.

Pete

 

[kshansen]

I have to do this on my 1982. When I was assembling the engine I had purchased a "new" OEM spring that was the heavier wire but did not do the fish scale test. Stupid me thought the new spring was the "cure" and just tossed in together! Wrong only about 1/3 of the time does it engauge the gear long enough to start the engine.

Just for fun I should test the spring/gear from the original engine sitting apart on the bench. Not being a fisherman guess I need to make a run to BassPro first!

 

[weekendrider]

Or 3 QTS of water will be about 6 lbslbs.

 

[Ronnie_D]

Ronny - did you do the "fish scale" pull test on the hairpin spring?

It has been found that if the "pull force" is less that about 6 lbs, the starter will not engage properly. The squeeze trick often works but if the spring has already been squeezed or if it is one of the earlier parts or a cheapie aftermarket spring made of thinner wire, you might have to get a new one - just be sure to check it BEFORE installing it. A good hairpin spring is VERY tight on the starter gear - to the point where you can hardly move it with your hand.

This entire starter gnashing noise issue is a very common XS650 problem and many people have written about it. There is a YouTube video on-line - but the guy who shot it makes an error in fitting the "hairpin clip" into the little pocket in the engine casting. While that pocket was originally used on the first couple of years for that hairpin spring, Yamaha issued a correction to the manual at some point in the 1974-77 period. The correct position for the hairpin spring is forward of the pocket - not in it.

I did a fair bit of work on this "hairpin spring pull test" in my build thread - here is a linky: http://www.xs650.com/threads/build-thread-special-to-cafe-bike.48165/
....and the relevant posts are numbers: 257, 279, 282 and 288.

...and attached is a note that I got off the web and turned into a .pdf.

Pete

Thanks Pete, very helpful. I did the squeeze trick and it was a lot tighter. I didn't do the scale test tho.

I did put a boost battery hook up to the bike and tried it but it was still jumping out. I have a 1979 block that I pulled the bendix out of and put that 1 in today. I did the squeeze trick to it as well. When I tested it it worked great. I am not sure what is wrong with the original one. Can't see a difference but maybe it's wear.

Thank you guys for your help. I greatly appreciate it.

ride on...
Ronnie_D