transmission rebuild advice needed

snailstoves

XS650 Enthusiast
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Hi all, I need some help here. something doesnt seem right to me.

I have in the last few weeks stripped, cleaned, measured and dialed the inner workings of me beloved xs.
reason for the tear down? dropping out of 2nd in neutral occasionally (though i've read a lot of posts on here and it seems like i'm not the only one)
the other reason is 45mph was the max i could do before it got all vibey and scary-noisy.

having checked the selector drum and shifting forks, im satisfied that they are in good nick. The 'stopper lever wheel' was shonky so i got a better one. feeling good about that.

So now i'm looking at the gear clusters

both the Drive Axle (front sprocket) and the Main Axle (Clutch) seem to have too much side play. I played with these for a while after reinstalling them. popped it into Neutral (amazing, it's never been that easy:laugh:) i pushed them as far to the left as they'll go then as far to the right, one at a time then both together. at each stage i checked the freeplay in the shifter forks, to check the clearance between the pinion gears and the wheel gears' dogs.

I CAN MAKE THEM TOUCH!!! sounds horrible even at 15rpm.

as i had a few spare tranny parts around i thought to shim the small needle bearing on the Drive Axle, (between the bearing and the blind bearing housing in the casing) this shim was exactly the same as the one that goes between that same bearing and the 2nd pinion gear. so that has taken up the slack without preload and stops those dogs from fighting. I guess theres a couple of thou movement in it now.

Finally the actual QUESTION. (if you're still with me, I thank you)

Will this be a problem once the engine is hot and expansion does its thang?

and while I'm at it.

Is there a definitive spec for end float on these 2 gear cluster shafts.

I WILL trawl through all those manual PDF's if I have to but I was really looking forward to bolting the cases back together tonight, and i reckon y'all know the feeling and will be quicker off the mark than that job.
 
Snailstoves
When you go in there agian, give the selector anothor look at. There are two small springs in there. They can fail. Also, the neutral detent may have jammed or become damaged. Undo that nut that sits on the casing and see if you can get the detent out - certainly check it moves by shifting gears.

If everything checks out, then move on to the surgery.

ANLAF
 
While I was putting my transmission back together I noticed that it wouldn't shift smoothly through the gears with the cases split. I attributed this to the fact that this is a constant mesh set of gears and when you rotate it slowly and try to slide the durm through the gears, the dogs occationally clash until they properly line up and allow it to slide into position. When the dogs clash and transmission shafts will actually lift themselves out of the case half due to the interference.

After reinspection to afirm eveything was in the proper place, I put the cases back together. Now with eveything securely held in place, the transmission smoothly works thru each gear. Much easier than it did when the shafts were trying to pry themselves out of the open case half.

Jon
 
Thanks ANLAF, neutral detent is there and working fine. Springs, I think you mean the detent spring and the stopper lever wheel? Both in good order.
My worry is that by shimming the bearings on the gear shafts I may be overdoing it. When engine gets warm, they may become too tight due to expansion.
 
Alwaysmonday, cheers. I can get the gears to move smoothly from 1st, thru neutral to 5th. While turning the clutch shaft, you need to have a thumb on the main shaft, where the sprocket goes. This will allow the dogs to move at different speeds and eventually match up when it locks into the next gear.
While doing this, over and over, I never have anything try to dis-locate from their bearing rests. All is smooth and as it should be.
But I did notice that when in neutral I can make the dogs from the 4th pinion gear touch the corresponding wheel gear. That's when I added the shims. To make sure that doesn't happen when the bike is back together. That's when I got concerned about expansion. Many thanks for your experiences tho.
 
ANLAF. I 'll c what I can do. May have to be a series of photo's. Best way is if I borrow a dial gauge then you can see the side to side play I'm talking about. Just seems a little sloppy considering the speed that the transmission gets up to and I'm not sure I trust those dogs to stay apart.
I doubt it'll be today though as I'm booked up.
Thank you so much for your help.

Dunno if I've said before but I eventually ended up with an xs cos I was told they are bomb proof. I have managed to kill every engine I've had up til now. I've had the xs for about 5years now and really want to look after it. Hence the rebuild. I'm also looking at barrel re bore and new pistons etc. Lapping the valves and carbs overhaul. Need new downpipes, though I may build a bender and make my own. Then the frame..headstick has been well raked and I love the look. Bike handles better than any I've ever had. Swinarm bearings need upgrading. Kit on the way. And the forks still need rechroming. Big job, but worth it. Especially as I got the bike for £500 with billet slab yokes worth that alone.
Can't wait to be back in the wind again. But will wait until it's all done right.
All the best, smiffy
 
some photo's then
i have put an info request on the GARAGE, waiting for replies - thanks weekendrider. looks like a great forum, and, if nothing else i got a good chuckle at the "you know you're an xs rider if....." page. even added one meself

1st photo shows the direction in which the main shaft is sliding and might help to make sense of my post. also shows the needle roller bearing which is located against the blind bearing housing. i didn't put in the photo where the dial guage was zero'd. that dial BTW is in .0005" increments. thats half a thou.

2nd photo shows the same thing but with my possibly illegal shim. see how i'm down to 2 thousands of an inch. i feel good about it, but we'll see.

3rd photo shows the shim is now sitting against the blind bearing face and holding the whole assy in such a way that the dogs on the gears can't meet when in neutral.

all the shots are in neutral. take my word for it the gear changes and neutral detent are smooth and well engaged.
 

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ANLAF its a bit hard to see but do you think theres a coupla clips there holding that bearing back? or is that wishful thinking on my part? :eek:)
 
I would remove the shim it doesn't belong there and is not needed. Once you put the 17 T sprocket and nut there is no free play. The only thing that shim is doing is misplacing the needle bearing and reducing the gap intended to oil the bearing. The same thing on the clutch shaft free play once the basket is installed.
 
Cheers scabber, that's a very good point. Hadn't thought to check play with the spacer and sprocket in place. And yes, it might just be filling a gap that's meant for oil flow.
Good advice gratefully received.
 
TwoManyXS1Bs yes thanks, there's more detail there than anything I've got at home. Will print that out and stick it in me clymer. I know that shim I put in was not standard. Thought it was a good idea until 'scabber' pointed out the downfalls. Basically, the shim would cover up the end of the small needle roller bearing preventing oil from entering. Scary thought eh? I haven't had a chance to get to it yet but I expect he's right in saying the free play I was concerned about will be taken up by the spacer, seal and front sprocket.
Thanks to everyone who helped me puzzle this out. I am on my own out here without this forum. Never done a rebuild before and am happy to put my newbie questions out for inspection. As they say, take one step back in order to take two steps forward.

All the best, this forum rox!!!!
 
Yes, take a step back. And, as Scabber mentioned, consider that both shafts will be pulled into final position against their respective bearings, and not float, when the sprocket and clutch hub nuts are tightened...
 
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