Troubleshoot THIS!

[gggGary]

POS had been in the shed 4 6 months, guy said make it run. Guess i dint say NO loud enough. Got THAT phone call today so on the lift it went.


Here's your clue.


My total troubleshooting equipment.

A jumper wire and a turn signal bulb with alligator clips.
After electric 101, fuse box fixed, connections cleaned made, grounds found. Starter circuit fixed.
What was the problem?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

Russians?

 

[Mailman]

Blown fuse? Corroded connections? Shorted wire? One or all?

 

[gggGary]

Blown fuse? Corroded connections? Shorted wire? One or all?

That's just old bike stuff
That clue pic points to one of ole gggGary's riffs on what not to do to your XS650.

 

[willis]

Did they weld a stud on for a side cover mount? And probably with the battery still hooked up too? Poof

 

[gggGary]

Did they weld a stud on for a side cover mount? And probably with the battery still hooked up too? Poof

Getting warm WHAT went poof?

 

[Mailman]

Electronic Ignition

 

[MaxPete]

I’m interested - I’ve seen lots of welding done on vehicles which were essentially wired and complete with no ill-effects, but on the XS650, welding with the electrical system installed seems to be a big NO-NO.

How come?

 

[gggGary]

TCI was toast.

I’m interested - I’ve seen lots of welding done on vehicles which were essentially wired and complete with no ill-effects, but on the XS650, welding with the electrical system installed seems to be a big NO-NO.

How come?

Every manufacturer warns. Ask an exhaust welder about blowing modules, bet they can tell you plenty of stories.
Don't know why the TCI is SO sensitive but it is. Maybe some reverse direction current susceptibility designers weren't accounting for.
This bike was REALLY Billy-ized, very crude angle grinder work, seat mounts butchered away, frame tubes have big gouges, grind marks, handlebar controls filed "round", wires, cut, butchered, twisted, taped, crash damage.
Owner had replaced harness with one from my stash, Can't imagine how bad the wiring HAD been. A previous shop quit in disgust, LOL
So the basic drill, put in a known good battery, clean the frame, bolt mounting, install new ground strap, known good iggy switch, change throttle side control for one with working switches. Grease, lube throttle before assembling. Trace power with light bulb tester, it's getting to fuse box, then iggy on, tail light lights! We have some connections, more light bulb testing and find bad iggy fuse "holder", sub in a good holder from a junk harness.

Pull plugs, clean gap. check compression 100 lbs each side. (should run) squirted in some oil. I'm kinda lazy so starter next, nothing of course, big screwdriver, short the solenoid terminals, she cranks! Pull blue white wire at solenoid, ground, bingo! up to (missing) headlight bucket, shove small screwdriver in RH control connection blue white, ground it,

that works. I had tossed on a random RH control from the bins, Ground the control, double check ground from LH control, hit button with some rust buster, push n wiggle a few times, there we go, button now works. Put on a pair of spark plugs connected by bare copper wire. Start checking spark, NADA. pull coil connector use test light, red has power. Change one alligator on test light to ground, clip other to orange wire, crank, no pulsing light. Could be TCI, or something in triggers but seeing that welding, I go grab a spare TCI. BINGO. Nice bright blue spark.
Next up carbs, BS34s some one has busted off choke knob, bent the choke pull tangs, pulled them right off the choke plunger, NEVER seen chokes stuck that tight had to use my heat shrink gun for a while to soften the varnish,then it moved. I didn't even bother trying gas in carbs. squirt some Carb cleaner in throats and crank, get it to run! Pull carbs open bowls takes some serious whacks to break gaskets loose, floats stuck, varnish everywhere. Call owner leave message about $$ to fix these carbs, he says we're good, I'll do carbs.
Check oil, NADA! Both plugs loose NO oil, oops, tighten plugs, add a couple quarts, good thing I squirted some in cylinders before cranking! Assume nothing.

Hah it's out of my hands, whew go for barn ride on WJL it's great to be out.

 

[MaxPete]

Good for you Gary!

 

[Mailman]

That’s amazing, I’d be floundering with that thing for weeks to get done what you did. Electrical trouble shooting is my kryptonite!

 

[MaxPete]

That’s amazing, I’d be floundering with that thing for weeks to get done what you did. Electrical trouble shooting is my kryptonite!

Bob: the stuff that TJ and Jim are doing is well beyond me too - but general faffing around getting switches and light bulbs working is truly not that difficult. All you need is a cheap (like $10 or so) volt-ohm-amp meter from Harbour Fright and the electrical schematic. A 12v test lamp with a sharp probe and an alligator clip is also helpful (also for a few bucks at H-F).

Then you just need to recall that an electrical circuit is like the plumbing in your house and that water comes in and has to travel around in the pipes and do things and then it goes back out. In a bike, the electricity "starts" at the battery positive or + terminal and travels through the wires making bulbs light-up and motors spin and horns honk etc. and then it "returns" to the battery negative or - terminal, usually through the bike's frame which is "grounded" or connected to the negative terminal. The following equivalences can be drawn between plumbing and electricity:

• Volts (oddly enough, measured in "volts" - sometimes called EMF for Electromotive Force - but it really isn't a force) = electrical "pressure"
• Current (measured in "amperes" - sometimes using the symbol "I" for Intensity of Electron Flow)= electrical "flow"
• Resistance (measured in "ohms" - symbol looks like a horseshoe) = the properties of the circuit to resist the flow of electricity (or water)

The relationship among volts, ohms and amps is called Ohm's Law (like many other scientific relationships, it was developed by a German engineer named Georg Simon Ohm) and here it is:

My Dad was a high school electricity teacher and he taught us a little mnemonic or verse to help us remember Ohm's Law:

The vulture on the mountain watched the Indian chase the rabbit which can be written as:
I = V / R (resistance in ohms = voltage divided by current in amperes)
or
V = I x R (voltage = current in amperes multiplied by resistance in ohms)
or
R = V / I (resistance in ohms = voltage divided by current in amperes)

Also - electrical power in Watts = voltage x current or V x I - and it can also be related to resistance to current and voltage such as for example, that is how a hair dryer works (Watts = R x I**2 - which means squared or multiplied by itself). Here is a clip off the web (NOTE: voltage and voltage difference are the same for our purposes):
___________________________________
electric power = voltage x current
P = VI
Resistors:

So - an XS650 headlight rated at 55W or 55 Watts will require 4.58 amps of current at 12 volts (P = VI or 55 / 12 = 4.58) and hairdryer rated at 1500 watts will require 12.5 amps at 120 volts: (I = P/V or 1500 / 120 = 12.5 amps).
Also, the hairdryer will have a resistance in ohms of about 9.6 amps (I = VxV/P or 120 x 120 / 1500 = 9.6 amps)

I know that is a lot of math to absorb - but the key things on a bike that you need to be able to check for are:

• voltage between two points (using the "volt" scale on the meter) and for,
• resistance - or more often, a lack of resistance which is also known as "continuity" - using the ohms scale on the meter.

You cannot damage anything doing this don't hesitate to give it a try and mess around with it. Lots of us can help, I'm sure.

Pete

 

[GLJ]

Bob: the stuff that TJ and Jim are doing is well beyond me too - but general faffing around getting switches and light bulbs working is truly not that difficult. All you need is a cheap (like $10 or so) volt-ohm-amp meter from Harbour Fright and the electrical schematic. A 12v test lamp with a sharp probe and an alligator clip is also helpful (also for a few bucks at H-F).

Then you just need to recall that an electrical circuit is like the plumbing in your house and that water comes in and has to travel around in the pipes and do things and then it goes back out. In a bike, the electricity "starts" at the battery positive or + terminal and travels through the wires making bulbs light-up and motors spin - and then it "returns" to the battery negative or - terminal, usually through the bike's frame which is "grounded" or connected to the negative terminal. The following equivalences can be drawn between plumbing and electricity:

• Volts (oddly enough, measured in "volts" - sometimes called EMF for Electromotive Force - but it really isn't a force) = electrical "pressure"
• Current (measured in "amperes" - sometimes using the symbol "I" for Intensity of Electron Flow)= electrical "flow"
• Resistance (measured in "ohms" - symbol looks like a horseshoe) = the properties of the circuit to resist the flow of electricity (or water)

The relationship among volts, ohms and amps is called Ohm's Law (like many other scientific relationships, it was developed by a German engineer named Georg Simon Ohm) and here it is:

My Dad was a high school electricity teacher and he taught us a little mnemonic or verse to help us remember Ohm's Law:

The Indian on the mountain watched the vulture chase the rabbit which can be written as:
I = V / R (resistance in ohms = voltage divided by current in amperes)
or
V = I x R (voltage = current in amperes multiplied by resistance in ohms)
or
R = V / I (resistance in ohms = voltage divided by current in amperes)

Also - electrical power in Watts = voltage x current or V x I - and it can also be related to resistance to current and voltage such as for example, that is how a hair dryer works (Watts = R x I**2 - which means squared or multiplied by itself). Here is a clip off the web (NOTE: voltage and voltage difference are the same for our purposes):
___________________________________
electric power = voltage x current
P = VI
Resistors:

So - an XS650 headlight rated at 55W or 55 Watts will require 4.58 amps of current at 12 volts (P = VI or 55 / 12 = 4.58) and hairdryer rated at 1500 watts will require 12.5 amps at 120 volts: (I = P/V or 1500 / 120 = 12.5 amps).
Also, the hairdryer will have a resistance in ohms of about 9.6 amps (I = VxV/P or 120 x 120 / 1500 = 9.6 amps)

I know that is a lot of math to absorb - but the key things on a bike that you need to be able to check for are:

• voltage between two points (using the "volt" scale on the meter) and for,
• resistance - or more often, a lack of resistance which is also known as "continuity" - using the ohms scale on the meter.

You cannot damage anything doing this don't hesitate to give it a try and mess around with it. Lots of us can help, I'm sure.

Pete

Pete not to nit pick but

 

[MaxPete]

Pete not to nit pick but
View attachment 170094

True - but to me, the actual direction of flow is a small detail and not intuitive. Besides, I was trying to keep the complications out of it and not confuse the issues with actual facts.

...did I succeed?

Yeah, I thought not.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Don't mix up Current with Conventional Current. Conventional Current has the flow from +ve to -ve.

 

[Paul Sutton]

Just to clarify about current. Conventional Current is a flow from Positive to Negative. This was introduced by B Franklin and you could argue he got it wrong. However Conventional current is so deeply embedded in the world of electricity that it is here to stay for a very long time. MaxPete is correct when he talks about the flow of electricity. All those practical electrical engineer hand/finger rules are based on a flow from Positive to Negative.

We know that electrons actually flow from Negative to Positive and it is accepted that Conventional Current and Electron Flow are in opposite directions.

See the following for some nice diagrams and amusing comments:
https://www.mi.mun.ca/users/cchaulk/eltk1100/ivse/ivse.htm#:~:text=Conventional Current assumes that current,negative terminal of the source.&text=Electron Flow is what actually,positive terminal of the source.

 

[MaxPete]

Just to clarify about current. Conventional Current is a flow from Positive to Negative. This was introduced by B Franklin and you could argue he got it wrong. However Conventional current is so deeply embedded in the world of electricity that it is here to stay for a very long time. MaxPete is correct when he talks about the flow of electricity. All those practical electrical engineer hand/finger rules are based on a flow from Positive to Negative.

We know that electrons actually flow from Negative to Positive and it is accepted that Conventional Current and Electron Flow are in opposite directions.

See the following for some nice diagrams and amusing comments:
https://www.mi.mun.ca/users/cchaulk/eltk1100/ivse/ivse.htm#:~:text=Conventional Current assumes that current,negative terminal of the source.&text=Electron Flow is what actually,positive terminal of the source.

Hey - that’s pretty cool! I’ve been called a lot of things in my life, but “conventional” is not one that has often come up.
Hehehehe.
Pete

 

[gggGary]

If I could interrupt this thread...
While waiting for the guy to come claim his prize this morning.... I overhauled the carbs, everything but throttle shaft seals, took heat to get both chokes out of the bodies, floats were stuck on pivots, drilled out idle screw plugs. got idle screws and pilot jets out, removed, cleaned needle jets, found at least 4 blocked jets, orifices and passages. One pilot jet rubber plug was missing, pulled float valve bodies, o-rings were good, huh. Diaphragms good. Lots of carb cleaner and blew all passages with compressed air. All back together, new fuel line and clamps. Put a temp tank on it, and it starts and runs great. Annnnnnnnnddd it's outta here, WooHoo.
Might put the neighbor haters back on Madness next while waiting for Norton parts to arrive. Allison has a TIG project for me gotta learn to TIG aluminum.. Hear the Canadian border might open in July.
We've got this;

 

[MaxPete]

If I could interrupt this thread...
Hear the Canadian border might open in July.
We've got this;

Yes...yes, I can see that!

Tell me - was that young man badly injured while handling things so effectively?

P

 

[Superjet]

While he was handling things so effectively Pete, parts of his brain was not effectively used. I am sure he would be a hurtin. JC