Weak Midrange RPMs. Loss of "Pull".....goes flat...

Installed 47.5 pilot. 140 main that was in when i got the bike. Floats at 21.15 mm. New washer and orings for mix screws.

Idles better, hasnt tried to pop and cut off since new jetting. 50 to 60 mph is very fast. A small flat spot in the midrange but nothing like before. Still pulls just not as aggressively. I built a small gas tank to hang above to provide fuel when I tune her later. I have a yard stick manometer. I will post pics later. After I tune / sync I will see how the midrange is. If still flat, I may shim the needle. Also have Uni's on order. I will see how those affect the ride after tuning. May retune and decide on the needles then.

Thanks for the help and patience everyone.
 
I have the 4" uni's. they don't affect at all. they are the preferred pod for cv carbs.
those pleated pods block the oval that lets vacuum pull the slide up.
 
Just an update.

Now running 150 mains. Got my Unis on. Runs better above 60 mph and no stuttering when at full throttle.

Having trouble at idle though. Trottle screw is more open than i think it should be and still struggles. This issue is pretty recent. 47.5 pilot, 150 main, unis, Left mix 3.5 out, right 3 out. Plugs burn equal like this, but both lean.

Cleaned carbs, removed jets and blew out passages like a week ago when I put in the 150 mains. All jets are mikuni. All jets are new except the original air jet.

I think I either have an air leak....that I havent been able to find.... or not enough fuel due to a too small pilot or a blockage. Blockage would have to be in the tank I guess. New fuel line and filter. Tank has a small amount of rust, but not much, but It could still be an issue I guess.

After paying attention while riding the last few days, I spend a lot of time around 1/4 throttle or less. Only when Im getting to speed to I see half throttle. Once cruising I stay near or below 1/4 throttle. Not sure of rpm at 60...no tach....but not much throttle needed.

50 pilots???
 
You're very big on your jetting already. Two up on the pilots is an exception, not the norm. Most use just one up. 150 mains are huge, way bigger than yours or any 650 should require. I would suspect your fuel filter is choking off the flow. Or maybe the filter screens under the float needle seats are getting plugged.
 
Wouldn't a flow problem show up across the spectrum? Not just on the idle circuit?
If it is starving it at idle it seems to me it would starve across the board.
 
I was running 42.5 pilot, 140.0 main, shitty air filters, bone dry shaft seals, and 2 into 1 exhaust with muffler and was running rich.

Changed pipes...open with lolipop baffles... installed 47.5 pilot, 150.00 main, Uni filters, new lines and filter,and now running lean.

Was always rich before the new pipes. Lean since them. Thats why Ive increased jet sizes.

It doesnt backfire. Occsional little missfire or something that sometimes causes a stall. Seems to come from the carb, not the pipes. Trying to upload a video. Only does it at idle. Runs pretty smooth on the throttle. I think It has to be involved with the running lean.

Havent been able to get a good tune done. Gotta get a more consistant idle to work with.

Yep, big on the jetting for now. Still working on it.

Not sure about the full spectrum thing. Twins???

Id be incline to think not. If all is jetted properly but the pilot, only 1/4 throttle and less would be affected right. Dont bs34s work by throttle positon, not rpm???? The pilot may have some influence on all jets after it though?????
 

Maybe its a misfire? It happens at 1:09 . You'll hear it. This vid is a couple months old and the sound isnt very good in the garage, but this happens only at low rpms. Usually idling at the light.

When coming to a stop, the rpms drop like youd expect, but sometimes they keep falling and will stall if you dont bump the throttle. Bumping the throttle causes the rpms to hang, and sometime climb a bit when its fully warm. Lately its been high or low, very inconsistant. Cant seem to get a good solid long term Idle.

Lean symptoms i believe.

I have no real trouble starting her. 1st kick most days 2-4 on a hard day. Not usually more than 2 though.


Bike has moods..... I've had days where she idles great and runs strong. And the next day Its all I can do to keep her running. Then fine the next day. Thats why I believe its a possible blockage somewhere.



Here she is on a good day. First start of the morning.

 
CV carbs work by both throttle position and RPMs so you have to take both into account. Your slides operate by vacuum. Higher RPMs create more vacuum and more slide lift. It's possible to get up to redline and get the slides pretty much fully lifted using only, say, half throttle. You would be running mostly on the mains then but if you were trying to tune by throttle position, that might have you thinking you were running on the needle (midrange circuit).

Throttle position does play a more prevalent part at lower speeds and RPMs. You're uncovering those small holes in the main bore that let the pilot circuit fuel flow in when you open the butterfly plate. I should mention here that your pilot circuit never just turns off, it's always flowing and adding some to the carb's overall flow and mix. It doesn't have a large effect when you're going really fast and turning high RPMs, but it's there. Carb manuals will tell you it effects up to 1/4 throttle. Well, it effects MOSTLY up to 1/4 throttle, but it's always there adding some fuel. I would also suggest equalizing your mix screw settings. Having them a half turn off from each other isn't good or right. On the BS34s especially, it can cause popping and a hanging idle speed (slow to return).

It's easy to over-jet CV carbs because they work on engine demand. The slide will only lift as much as the engine can use no matter how far you twist the grip open. So, the bike can seem to run OK with really big (too big) main jets because the slide isn't lifting and pulling the needle all the way out of them - they're not fully flowing.

Since CV carbs are so forgiving, to properly test your jetting, you have to push them hard. In the case of the mains and midrange to main transition, you need to run full throttle tests from about 3 to 3.5K up to near redline in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear. In particular, this will uncover any stumbling in the upper midrange, in the midrange to main transition area, which is an indication that your mains are too large. If you've never tested in this manner, then you'll never know. If you just putt around all the time (which it sounds like you do), the bike will run with just about any jets you put in there.

For testing the pilots, find a large parking lot and ride around in 1st about as slow as you can go smoothly. At that slowest steady speed, look for surging which would indicate you're too lean. Occasionally, grab a big handfull of throttle to test the idle circuit to midrange transition. You don't need absolute full throttle like for the main jet test, just a big handful is good enough. If you get a giant hesitation or flat spot before the bike goes, you're too lean. If you get stumbles and break-up, you're too rich. You can attempt to tune these glitches out with the mix screws but they only control about 1/4 of the fuel delivery from the pilots. They are for fine tuning and may help but may not fix the problem completely. A pilot jet size change may be called for in that case.
 
I guess, considering I may be a bit overjetted and still running lean, I will check the fuel line and filter. Filter was full of fuel so I know its getting there. When checking the bowls with the clear hose I've always had plenty of fuel in the bowls. Near the gasket level. Floats are now at 22.10 mm both sides. Carbs do not leak anywhere.

I've had the tank off recently and checked the petcock. It stops fuel when off and has a nice stream when on. Works great. New manual type, 8 months old. Gonna plan to clean the tank a bit sometime in the near future. Never cleaned it before.

Also going to check again for an air leak. Havnt found one yet other than the throttle shaft seals which have been replaced.

Mikes boots, 10 months old still feel new and rubbery. Mostly ethanol free fuel, but not always an option. New blind plugs are zip tied on. Carb inlet boots clamped down tight, touching.

Just more info to work with.

Any better ways of searcing for an air leak than with propane? Small torch...unlit...derrrr.

There is a real art to carbs...............
 
You're very big on your jetting already. Two up on the pilots is an exception, not the norm. Most use just one up. 150 mains are huge, way bigger than yours or any 650 should require. I would suspect your fuel filter is choking off the flow. Or maybe the filter screens under the float needle seats are getting plugged.

Float needle seat filter screens are clean. Yep.

Fuel filter could be it. Fuel is getting to the filter I know, and to the bowls, but maybe not fast enough when shes running. Not refilling the bowl quite fast enough...Maybe...grasping straws....
 
Yes, that appears to be a random misfire, but who knows what the cause is. Could be electrical, could be carbs, on a 30+ year old bike it could be anything, lol. If you really think it's carb related, I would start watching for another set. Maybe some 650 parts will pop up locally on Craigslist or something. Sometimes a carb set is just plain bad, worn or damaged internally, and no amount of tuning and jetting is going to fix that. Then again, maybe it's related to your exhaust. Tuning for straight pipes can be very difficult, sometimes impossible. The state of tune you've got may be as good as it gets. You might consider getting the Canadian needles and needle jets. You could make the midrange much richer using those. I don't know, your bike seems to be a real "problem child". It doesn't seem to behave much like any of the other 650s I've worked on, or 650s in general.
 
"I don't know, your bike seems to be a real "problem child". It doesn't seem to behave much like any of the other 650s I've worked on, or 650s in general.

Yea. I've noticed. Trying hard not to be a quitter. It is hard sometimes. Still got fork oil to do, got the seals,....still leaking some oil from behind the sprocket, got the seal.....sump started leaking this weekend, gotta tighten it up a bit, rear brake drum started making a sound Friday..new shoes....., it goes on. I already have too much invested in it. Dont want to cut my losses....not yet anyway...Not if there is hope. I love my bike.
 
Well, could still be ignition. The PAMCO is great because it will work with 5 or 6 Volts, but that can lead to you thinking that there is nothing wrong with the ignition, and you would be right, but if your kill switch is dirty, and it is dirty unless you have cleaned it since you owned the bike, because nobody else did, then you will experience a voltage drop across the contacts of the switch which robs current going to the coils. The trusty PAMCO will just keep on working, because it will work all the way down to 3 Volts, but the coils need more than that, so measure the voltage drop across the contacts of the kill switch, but you have to do this when the coil is turned on by the PAMCO transistor, and that occurs when the sensor is in between the magnets. (equivalent to the points being closed)

So, here is a fairly elaborate procedure to check the voltage drop across the kill switch contacts.

1. Remove the PAMCO rotor.
2. Remove the locating pin in the advance rod that engages the rotor.
3. Replace the rotor with the nut loose so you can rotate the rotor.
4. Turn on the ignition switch and kill switch.
5. Rotate the rotor counterclockwise until the sensor is in between the magnets.
6. Measure the Voltage between the contacts of the kill switch.
7. Should be no more than .5 Volt.

Note: If you cannot easily remove the locating pin in the advance rod, remove the slotted disk from the advance side instead.
A convenient way to measure the drop across the kill switch is to measure from the battery positive terminal to the hot wire on the coil. This includes the igniiton switch and various connections fuses etc. but should not be more than 1 Volt.
 
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5. Rotate the rotor counterclockwise until the sensor is in between the magnets.


Like so?

Crude,, i know. But not directly over the sensor right?

The voltage DROP should be less than 1 volt,..... more like .5 correct? So if Batt voltage 12.5. Reading after contacts should show 12.0 or so???

Check the voltage at the battery and then at the coil with the switch and power on.

Correct.
 

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5. Rotate the rotor counterclockwise until the sensor is in between the magnets.


Like so?

Crude,, i know. But not directly over the sensor right?

The voltage DROP should be less than 1 volt,..... more like .5 correct? So if Batt voltage 12.5. Reading after contacts should show 12.0 or so???

Check the voltage at the battery and then at the coil with the switch and power on.

Correct.

Right. You could even continue to rotate the rotor to the point where a spark is developed to show you where and then come around again but do not go to the point where it sparks.
 
I will do this and many other things late into tonight. I will list what I get done later tonight.


In regards to the kill switch test,...coil voltage test.... if all was tuned properly and i had low voltage at the coil....Id have a weak spark and wet plugs....right???

5Twins believes Im jetted too big, but Im still running lean.

Exhaust leak at the head cause something like this?????? Any not obvious locations of possible leaks.

Any unusual ways of checking?? I plan to use the propane torch unless i get a better idea.
 
Theories abound. The best thing to do is make sure you are getting sufficient voltage to the coils. 5twins pointed out something earlier about our concepts of what plugs should look like under various conditions. Most of these concepts were developed prior to the introduction of ethanol in the gas. Could be a different ball game now when it comes to analyzing plug conditions and trying to interpret what they mean.
 
Yes, plugs don't color up as readily as they used to. You may think you're looking at a really lean plug but it may not be as lean as you think. Take a look at mine. You may think this is lean but it's not. This is how plugs generally look today. The porcelain remains very clean, pretty much white. It may take on a slight tan tint after many, many miles. The side strap gets light grey. This is where you want to see a little color. Also, down at the very bottom of the porcelain, deep down inside the threaded portion, you should have a dark colored ring. It should only extend up the porcelain 1/8" or so. If you have color extending halfway or more up the porcelain, you're running rich.

MarkedPlugs.jpg
 
Yes, plugs don't color up as readily as they used to. You may think you're looking at a really lean plug but it may not be as lean as you think. Take a look at mine. You may think this is lean but it's not. This is how plugs generally look today. The porcelain remains very clean, pretty much white. It may take on a slight tan tint after many, many miles. The side strap gets light grey. This is where you want to see a little color. Also, down at the very bottom of the porcelain, deep down inside the threaded portion, you should have a dark colored ring. It should only extend up the porcelain 1/8" or so. If you have color extending halfway or more up the porcelain, you're running rich.

MarkedPlugs.jpg

I saw this pic on another post you made earlier today. It helps. I try to run ethanol free, but it doesnt always work that way. On reserve, you get the closest gas.

Its true I may not be as lean as it appears, but I still have the inconsistent idle problem. Thats my focus now. If I can fix that I think the rest will fall into place.

I hope.

Spark could be it, especially if Im not running too lean, that would explain the bad idle and poor low rpm performance in first gear.

Thanks everyone. I know shes trouble, but shes my trouble and I'll keep defending her to the end.

Or until I kick her needy ass to the curb........:shrug:
 
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