XS ignition woes

[JBMatthews82]

I’m back with the same problem again. 81 xs650. JE 700 kit. Mikes XS red ignition. MP-08 Honda coil. Hughs charging system and antigravity gel battery. Both new. Everything on the bike is new or less than a year old. The issue I have is the bike starts busting out/skipping as it must be loosing fire when it gets hot. By hot I mean after I cruise through a parking lot or let it idle too long at stop lights. If I can get out of town and get some airflow it’ll work itself out after a few miles. I had this issue earlier posted about it and it was recommended to change to a Honda coil which I did. Seemed to be fine until I drove 10 miles to the grocery store. It ran fine when I cut it off but after I picked up a few things 5 min later it barely ran. Once I got out of town it got some airflow and got better and better until it ran normal. I’m not sure what’s next to do. What other ignition system is out there that would work with my current setup ? I’ve had nothing but issues from this ignition. It’s been warrantied once already. I have zero trust in this motorcycle and don’t feel comfortable going further than I can walk with it. Too much invested in it to walk away but can’t sell something not reliable either.

 

[jetmechmarty]

Boyer? Tytronic? https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-yamaha-xs650.html

I doubt any are superior to what the factory put on the 1981 XS650. Feedback on the XSCharge has me believing it’s a POS.

 

[Jan_P]

When I get these type Problems I sometimes Think F*** it -- Draw separate wires directly from the battery to the
Coils and ignition and separate ground to the battery as well .
DONT LEAVE POWER ON it can fry the ignition Put at switch or disconnect
A fuse wont hurt but I tend to skip it and can be punished for it some day.
Most of the times that gets the bike running.

If that solve It you have something to work on If not then maybe the ignition needs attention.

Voltmeter installed on the bike Is a good thing to do

 

[jetmechmarty]

Boyer? Tytronic? https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-yamaha-xs650.html

I doubt any are superior to what the factory put on the 1981 XS650. Feedback on the XSCharge has me believing it’s a POS.

Reading your post more carefully. When it’s running, make sure the alternator output is the correct 14 volts. Assuming that’s right, the ‘81 bike did not have points. If you’re sure you have no issue with the rotating parts controlling ignition, I think maybe the XSCharge is faulty.

Did you install the ignition parts into the cylinder head yourself? Or buy it that way?

 

[Kevin Werner]

@jetmechmarty raises the issue of correct voltage. These are ~1' x 2.2" and can be fastened with velcro tape strips. If your charging system is weak or sketchy you will have problems. XS650s do not charge much or at all while idling, the voltage only rises to 14-14.4 volt at ~2000 -2200 rpm and beyond.

Futher, I assume your ignition box is in the cannister under the seat. Is it overheating, feel it when it is operating correctly and then again when the bike acts up.

 

[JBMatthews82]

When I get these type Problems I sometimes Think F*** it -- Draw separate wires directly from the battery to the
Coils and ignition and separate ground to the battery as well .
DONT LEAVE POWER ON it can fry the ignition Put at switch or disconnect
A fuse wont hurt but I tend to skip it and can be punished for it some day.
Most of the times that gets the bike running.

If that solve It you have something to work on If not then maybe the ignition needs attention.

Voltmeter installed on the bike Is a good thing to do

All the wiring is new by me. Control wiring is what I do for a living. It’s about as simple as it gets with this bike. One wire from the middle key switch position to the ignition. Good grounds. Plus wiring issues wouldn’t change when it gets hot or cooler back. I am getting 14volts at the shop but I haven’t checked while it’s busting out.

 

[JBMatthews82]

Reading your post more carefully. When it’s running, make sure the alternator output is the correct 14 volts. Assuming that’s right, the ‘81 bike did not have points. If you’re sure you have no issue with the rotating parts controlling ignition, I think maybe the XSCharge is faulty.

Did you install the ignition parts into the cylinder head yourself? Or buy it that way?

All the wiring and ignition were installed by me. All free rotating parts. Again, it runs perfect cold. Only when it’s sitting still and not getting “air cooled” does it give issues.

 

[jetmechmarty]

All the wiring is new by me. Control wiring is what I do for a living. It’s about as simple as it gets with this bike. One wire from the middle key switch position to the ignition. Good grounds. Plus wiring issues wouldn’t change when it gets hot or cooler back. I am getting 14volts at the shop but I haven’t checked while it’s busting out.

Your bike came originally with no advance rod and no mechanical ignition advance. Original cam not cleaned up for an advance rod. That’s why I brought it up. From my armchair, I still think the MikesXS ignition is faulty.

 

[JBMatthews82]

Boyer? Tytronic? https://www.elektronik-sachse.de/shopsystem-3/en/digital-ignition-zdg-3-23-for-yamaha-xs650.html

I doubt any are superior to what the factory put on the 1981 XS650. Feedback on the XSCharge has me believing it’s a POS.

I believe both of those would require different coils and or additional components to be installed on the bike somewhere. I’m against mounting anything else as everything is powder coated now. And the XSCharge has been a total headache from day one. I had to end up getting an “advanced” rotor button from them because to accurately time the ignition the pickup was out of the screw slots. I think I should just go back to points. All of these ignitions were designed to replace the problematic points but it’s been less reliable than anything I’ve ever worked on.

 

[JBMatthews82]

@jetmechmarty raises the issue of correct voltage. These are ~1' x 2.2" and can be fastened with velcro tape strips. If your charging system is weak or sketchy you will have problems. XS650s do not charge much or at all while idling, the voltage only rises to 14-14.4 volt at ~2000 -2200 rpm and beyond.
View attachment 258934Futher, I assume your ignition box is in the cannister under the seat. Is it overheating, feel it when it is operating correctly and then again when the bike acts up.

What control box? I have a coil mounted under the tank and electronic ignition mounted behind the cover like factory. The charging system is brand new by Hughes and also mounted in their factory locations. The only thing in my canister is a key switch and fuses.

 

[JBMatthews82]

Your bike came originally with no advance rod and no mechanical ignition advance. Original cam not cleaned up for an advance rod. That’s why I brought it up. From my armchair, I still think the MikesXS ignition is faulty.

I guess I don’t know enough about what the rod goes through but I know it is driven by the cam under the side cover and goes through the engine via brass bushings that seem to fit properly.

 

[Jan_P]

All the wiring and ignition were installed by me. All free rotating parts. Again, it runs perfect cold. Only when it’s sitting still and not getting “air cooled” does it give issues.

I never said the wiring is the problem it rarely is
The problem is to localize what subsystem is causing the heat dependent Problem ( or vibration problem )
As JetM says it can be ignition or it can the charging or something else

Perhaps run it hot and then remove charging fuse and run on battery for a short test

 

[jetmechmarty]

I guess I don’t know enough about what the rod goes through but I know it is driven by the cam under the side cover and goes through the engine via brass bushings that seem to fit properly.

I wish I could help more with this, but all of my XS650s are running late model stock TCI ignition. Hopefully, someone with experience with your modifications will chime in.

 

[JBMatthews82]

I never said the wiring is the problem it rarely is
The problem is to localize what subsystem is causing the heat dependent Problem ( or vibration problem )
As JetM says it can be ignition or it can the charging or something else

Perhaps run it hot and then remove charging fuse and run on battery for a short test

I see what you are saying. Is it safe to just unplug the voltage regulator to take the alternator out of the circuit? The charge wire goes straight from the voltage regulator to the battery.

 

[Jan_P]

I see what you are saying. Is it safe to just unplug the voltage regulator to take the alternator out of the circuit? The charge wire goes straight from the voltage regulator to the battery.

Not sure if Possible to do that . I Dont know that system sorry

Hughs charging system

Can be a PMA Possibly going hot without regulator and ruining it

 

[funky]

I have an 1981 special II 3L1 engine UK bike .. i fitted a Pamcoe electronic advance and ignition and a PMA kit from heiden tuning also have high voltage coil never had an issue using standard loom have you got a standard advance system or electronic advance. The PMA system is independant to the loom and I use a volt meter as pictured to monitor charging as i fitted it when my old charging system started to play up.

 

[JBMatthews82]

Not sure if Possible to do that . I Dont know that system sorry

Hughs charging system

Can be a PMA Possibly going hot without regulator and ruining it

The Hugh’s system is Brand new as well. Checks 14 Volts at the battery while running. But again everything runs fine after I get her in the wind and drive a few miles

 

[JBMatthews82]

I have an 1981 special II 3L1 engine UK bike .. i fitted a Pamcoe electronic advance and ignition and a PMA kit from heiden tuning also have high voltage coil never had an issue using standard loom have you got a standard advance system or electronic advance. The PMA system is independant to the loom and I use a volt meter as pictured to monitor charging as i fitted it when my old charging system started to play up.

This bike had a pamco when I purchased it. I should have left it alone but wanted all new so I didn’t have to worry about breakdown. Boy was I a fool. My advance is mechanical.

 

[funky]

This bike had a pamco when I purchased it. I should have left it alone but wanted all new so I didn’t have to worry about breakdown. Boy was I a fool. My advance is mechanical.

Get an electronic advance from pamcoe i have the older seperate module but i think pamcoe make a combined ignition and advance it could be the mechanical advance and when you say Get Hot do you mean normal Hot or too hot

 

[JBMatthews82]

Get an electronic advance from pamcoe i have the older seperate module but i think pamcoe make a combined ignition and advance it could be the mechanical advance and when you say Get Hot do you mean normal Hot or too hot

As far as I know pamco hasn’t made ignitions in years. And as far as how hot I’d say crushing through a parking lot or turning the bike off long enough to fuel up or grab a soda, either one will cause the bike to start giving me issues.