XS1 XS650 Handling

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acebars

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Don't want to start an argument between members but I keep finding conflicting and contrasting views regarding the handling of an XS650 and would appreciate all your wisdom! I want to keep it specific to the XS-1 Drum brake model and how to improve the handling, which is the one I believe I'm going for in the end.

There are a several things I picked up and also questions regarding improving the handling:-

1) I understand new swing arm bushings and tapered steering are the first must improvements.

2) The XS-1 front forks, is it just me or the thin collar held by one bolt which holds the axle looks totally inadequate to me? Is this ok in reality or have there been reports of any funny behaviour from the drum brake wheel / fork on the road?

3) I understand there is a flex in the frame only sorted out several years later by Yamaha, is there a 100% cure for this by welding additional supports in areas? (I have seen something like this on another thread I posted).

Can't think of much else at the moment :) Would be much appreciated!
 
I have a 1981 model, love it, but though the later frames were supposed to be improved it is far from sorted. I have had bracing welded to the frame and now that the engine is back in am hopeful to see how the experiment plays out.

I think you will benefit from a fork brace and a stronger swingarm
 
Handling covers allot of ground and means different things. Are you already scraping hangy down bits in the corners? Do you want more traction from the tires? Do you want more confidence to ride fast? My take on handling is more confidence to go fast so that is what I'll address.

First: You have an XS-1 which is the museum bike of the XS line and the most valuable. Do not do anything that cannot be put back to stock!

Make sure everything is straight and tight. Although this seems obvious the basic bike will be very squirrelly and handling upgrades will not work as planned if the bike isn't setup properly.

Wheels straight. Align those suckers! The bike should track straight with your hands off the bars.

The front axle, the rear axle and the swing arm bolt should be tight! Torque specs might surprise you how tight those bolts should be. It is the concept of tension and compression in a single member and the bolt and spacer act as one part like it's welded to the frame, forks, SA.

Swing arm bushings have been mentioned. You'll never get a bike to handle with the back wheel flopping no matter how much time and money is thrown at it.

Steering head bearings for the front forks are frequently messed up on old bikes. Replace with tappered roller bearings because they are much sturdier.

Tires, lever on a set of modern rubber. I am amazed how much just the replacement of older carcass tires with modern profile has made my old bikes handle. Not just at high speeds and traction but tooling around a parking lot. Very confidence inspiring.

Fork brace. When the going gets rough a fork brace can stabilise the front end. I didn't think my brace was worth it until I hit some rough pavement too fast. She went straight over the bumps where before the handlbars would wobble.

Swing arm length. I'm not sure but I think the latter SA is a bit longer. By using a longer SA teh stability of a bike is increased at some expense of flickability. An inch or 1.5" will be noticed but don't go over 2", me thinks.

Longer shocks. By jacking up the rear of the bike almost an inch, the forks will decrease rake and the steering will quicken. Compensates for the longer swing arm and is great on the later bikes.

Frame. One of the more obvious changes to the later bikes is the front motor mount. On the early bikes the mount is separate to each side but the later bikes have a single sturdy mount piece that attaches with through bolts. Remember above when I mentioned the concept of tension and compression. Observe this here and do a mind experiment. Solid spacers and through bolts may stabilize the steering head all the way to the SA, even if just a bit.

I think all of these changes could be done and still have the bike looking like a stock modified. Everthing can be put back except if the original SA is lengthed.

Tom
 
Tom thanks for those pointers but have to say that those I do know about already, except for the frame bit.

Good tyres etc. is pretty standard. I'm more concerned about the lower fork axle mounts, have you seen them? They look pretty worrying on an XS-1.

I want a solid ride, like a Triumph Bonneville for example, and I'm concerned about the frame flex.

P.S. I don't have the bike yet, I'm looking to buy a tatty one that is far from stock, and to be honest I have no interest in keeping or bringing it back to stock. Personally old Jap bikes are not classics to me anyhow.
 
After you buy it of course it's yours and you can do what you want with it. But a classic is a classic no matter originality, British or German or Japanese. I don't see the need for discrimination, that's my take on this.

That said, standard chassis upgrades are well documented in the Minton mods article. And what Tom has covered in his reply pretty much could transform the early XSes into potent twisties carvers.

If I would have to vote for the most significant it would come down to: taper head bearings, fork brace, weld-on swingarm brace, swingarm bronze bushings. Modern tyres and proper wheel alignment are a given.

Oh and if you can, ditch the OEM rubber bushings in the handlebar risers and replace it with solid metal bushings. This will remove the 'vague' feeling of the steering.
 
The front end of the early ones don't tighten up very well. Stand in front, facing bike, clamp front tire (tyre?) with your knees, and twist the handlebars. Compare to later models, other bikes.

The front axle clamps on one side, nut on the other, one source of give.
Steel fork lowers have fender mount bungs vertically aligned, difficult to brace that, good luck finding a brace.
The top triple clamp merely bolts to the top of the forks, not a clamp style.
The top triple clamp clamps to the top stem nut, which can give a little.
Some folks have added bracing to the underside of the swingarm, not readily visible.
Original swingarm inner bush was 3-piece, dimension variations required use of shim washers. Best use 1-piece.
 
Thanks blknoel, yea the rubber bushings read about those! Any way of dealing of the really bad axle braces on the forks? Or is that really just a case of new forks?

Each to their own, I am of the opinion that the era of classic bikes ended in 1969, the golden age being between 1930-1969. This includes US makers, Brit, German, French and other countries and includes even some late 40s-50s Japanese & Russian bikes, the latter two being complete copies for the most part during those periods.

There are bikes that are iconic but will never be real classics, just some examples other than the XS, -70s Kawa Z1, CB750/4 -80s VFR400 NC30, RC 30, etc. wouldn't put them in the "classic" category, just my opinion.
 
@TwoManyXS1Bs: tyres are British :D

Anyway, when I say fork brace, this is the image (superior design):

Fork_Brace_Cat_Pic.jpg


Because what we normally see, in the design below, still introduces stiction:

4551672438.jpg
 
I rode mine stock for a few years. The suspension is just awful. There was one bump in particular on the freeway that I had to cross every night on my way home from work that would just about knock the wind out of me and send my ass a good 5 inches in the air if I hit it sitting down. Could barely even tell it was there riding that stretch on a modern bike.

The fork lowers are solid steel on those things. Between that, the steel rims, the big ass drum brake, and the steel fender you're looking at a ton of unsprung weight that can't react to sudden hits with anything but violence.
 
Interesting GreasyC I have a Cl450 drum brake on my CB500t at the moment and it seems to be ok with it.

It sounds like an internals issue of the fork itself rather than an unsprung weight thing, look at the 60s Triumphs they all have significant unsprung weight and most handle very well, I think unsprung weight comes into play far more prominently in racing situations.

I'd like to run a front drum brake setup on any bike I get and I'm looking at a XS-1 and a '73 at the moment (would have to convert that over on the '73), so is it worth just dumping the early forks or sorting out the internals? What did you do?

(blknoel I got what you meant, those braces may be a solution but they also look hideous!)
 
Yeah I have no doubt the fork internals and spindly upper tubes are suspect as well.

I parked it in the back of the garage and rode other bikes for years. Not much of a solution but that's the truth. After a while I felt bad for it and got curious how much better it would be with modern suspension and wheels so I took the old front end off in one piece and hung it on the wall, then started building a new one with modern forks and an aluminum rim. Got busy with other projects this year so it's still sitting in the garage waiting for me to come back to it and sort out the spacers for the brakes.
 
GreasyC, thats really depressing :( and almost putting me off the whole thing all together!

Would really love it if there was some sort of old school fork with drum brake setup that would fit supreme with the XS-1 the OEM setup sounds like junk!
 
Everybody has their own "normal" or "acceptable" etc so who knows, you may find it just fine. People ride hard tails with girder forks after all. For context, I think those people are crazy.

It's a bit disingenuous though to suggest only a finicky racer would notice the shortcomings of the stock suspension on an xs1! I'm comparing it to modern bikes, not another 40+ year old bike. It may well be comparable to other 40+ year old drum brake bikes, but I finally got to a "been there, done that" point with that level of compromise on the performance vs. looks thing. I don't care enough how cool it looks to be willing to give up that much performance in a daily driver. To me it's not subtle at all, it's a night and day difference between the ride quality of a 42 year old bike and even the lowliest modern one. Just going in a straight line down the same stretch of road is so much rougher on the XS1b vs a modern bike it's like a different activity altogether. I have an RD too and while it's better than the XS, it's not so much better that I want to ride it anymore.

Maybe the roads are better where you live though. That one bump that I really got sick of was part of a multi-year highway construction project that seems like it's never going to end.

I'm sure you can have cool vintage looks with comfortable suspension, you just have to finish your projects instead of neglecting them like me ;)
 
Ughh the CB450 forks are aweful, oddly CB500t forks are a slight improvement although they appear very similar but 3cm shorter if I remember correctly. There is a company that also makes CB500t emulators.

An improvement mod for the CB500t was actually to mount later 35mm XS650 forks, a huge improvement from what people were saying, so that has some bearing of the direction of where I should be going.

I'm not a finicky racer but I'm after a solid ride and no bouncy bouncy sponge stuff that I am experienced with on 70s Japanese bikes unfortunately! Looking for Triumph Bonneville handling no more, no less! And I do believe you can have all the cake and eat it in terms of looks and rideability (obviously not like a modern bike)!

I suppose in that regard it makes no difference whether I buy a XS-1 or '73 TX650 right? I understand they are the same engine parts, cams and frame? And I will have to sort the handling from there?
 
acebars said:
I suppose in that regard it makes no difference whether I buy a XS-1 or '73 TX650 right? I understand they are the same engine parts, cams and frame? And I will have to sort the handling from there?
Click to expand...

73TX 650 had upgrades forks and brakes over the XS1, so i guess there was some improvement
 
The `73 will have alloy lowers, with fender mount ears that can accept a fork brace, and a solid upper lip that will accept the better tkat-style brace. But it's still a 34mm tube...
 

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