Starter makes scratching noise

Hey guys, this is my first time building an XS650. It's a '79 frame with an '83 motor. The motor was rebuilt with new cylinders and pistons off Mike's. When I got the engine back, my buddy and I wired it together and started it using the electric start. It started eventually but made some horrible sounds before it did. Is that normal?

On another note, the kick start doesn't seem to work. When I kick it, nothing happens. I think my clutch is stuck engaged. I'm still investigating that issue. Could it be related?

if you're using the kick starter don't pull in the clutch and you have to be in neutral.

as far as the electric starter goes, no its not normal, you'll have to pull the clutch cover to fix it

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=948

Under the "Tech" section of this site. http://www.xs650.com/tech.php

If your clutch was "stuck engaged" the kick starter would work fine.
The kick starter engages a gear in the tranny, then turns the input shaft of the tranny. This turns the clutch inner hub which is hooked to the outer basket by the clutch plates. The outer basket is geared to the crank shaft.
When you push the starter button the starter motor turns a set of reduction gears on the left side of the engine. These gears spin a cross shaft. The cross shaft spins a small gear on the right side of the engine. This small gear engages a set of gears that work like the bendix on a car starter. These gears have two springs. One is wishbone shaped. it provide the gears with enough friction to keep them from turning as they slide into engagement with the teeth on the crankshaft. If this spring gets weak it won't engage properly and it won't turn the engine and makes all that noise.
The second spring is a coil spring and helps disengage the gears from the crank. If this spring gets weak after the engine starts the gears stay engaged and make noise.
To tighten the spring you squeeze the wishbone spring on the small end. The coil sring just stretch it some.
Put it all back together and the starter will work quiet and spin the engine over.
Leo

Thanks for the quick replies!

My bad, I think it's the opposite and my clutch isn't engaged, and that's why the kickstart doesn't work. I'll start a specific thread about that though.

As for my starter, thanks for that link Cafe-Dave. I'll take a more detailed look this weekend.

@XSLeo - that's comforting that someone has experience this sound before and it can be fixed. I just looked on Mike's and found their 'Starter Gear Repair Kit'. Hopefully that does the trick

You probably don't need the kit and it has been reported that the kit drag clip is weak. You're probably better off fixing yours.

http://650wiki.org/index.php/12.08._Electric_start_problem_fix

On your clutch not engaging it is most likely ad justed wrong. The adjuster in the side cover behind the little round cover is to tight.
If that doesn't help then the clutch maybe assembled wrong. There is a dimple or dot on the clutch hub. When putting the pressure plate on, there is a hole in the pressure plate, it must line up with the dimple so you can see the dimple in the hole.
The six springs are not exactly in the same place. If you put the pressure plate on wrong the edges of the holes that fit over the posts the spring scews thread into, the edge of the hole will rub on the posts and hold the pressure plate from completely closing. This can make the clutch slip, A slipping clutch makes the kickstarter not work well.
When you fix the starter gear springs you will have the clutch apart for room to work on the starter gears. This will give you a chance to assemble the clutch correctly.
On Mike's kit the spring was probably made to the specs from the early years.
In mid 75 they started replacing it with an improved spring because the early spring was to weak. And caused erratic engagement. The new spring is made of heavier wire and the small part won't fit in the notch in the case, it has to be put just to the right of the notch.
All bikes since the C model got the improved spring.
Leo

Update from the weekend

My buddy and I drained the oil, took off the side cover. This was my first time seeing the inside of the motor. I found the starter wishbone spring, but it was kinda in behind the clutch. We were able to get some needle nose pliers in far enough to squeeze the small end of the starter wishbone spring. Did we do anything? No idea. We squeezed on it pretty hard, with no visible difference. The metal seemed to flex a bit, but that's it. We figured we'd test it once it was back together to see if it helped.

While the side cover was off, we tried to investigate why the kickstart wasn't working as well. I pushed the kickstart very lightly to watch what happened. The clutch itself turned, but not the big gear behind it. We decided to check out the functionality of the clutch. We took out the clutch springs, then pulled out the cover and the plates. Then I realized we didn't have a clutch holder tool and were stuck. At this point we put in my 1 piece long push pod in the other end and pushed on it. We could see that it pushed on a ball barring and then the small plate that pushes on the clutch cover (releasing the clutch). That looked good. We put all the plates back in, and tightened the springs back down. After that we tried the kickstart and this time it turned the clutch and the big gear behind it!! This also gave lots of resistance, as it felt like it was turning more engine parts. That's what we wanted So then we put the side cover back on and poured oil back into the engine.

The first thing we tried was the starter. For the first 2-3 times I started it, the wishbone spring held tight, but then it started slipping again. I'm not sure if we didn't tighten it enough. I did confirm that the small end of the wishbone was in the NEW position to the right of the groove. Starter gear repair kit from Mike's?

We also tried the kickstart and it started doing the same thing as before. It pushes down easily without any resistance, air sucks in, but no compression. I'm not sure what we did wrong after putting the side cover on and putting oil in, but at that point we decided to work on non-engine stuff. I figure I can bring the bike to my engine guy and he'll get working.

Any ideas/suggestions?

Yes, take it to your engine guy because you don't have a clue what you're doing, lol. The drag clip needs to come off to properly bend it tighter. The clutch needs to come off to get the drag clip off and like you realized, you need the holding tool to do that.

5twins said:

Yes, take it to your engine guy because you don't have a clue what you're doing, lol.

Click to expand...

Hahhaah, so true. Thanks for all the help though.

@XSLeo: I like your signature 'The only way you can find out if you can do something is to try.'

I don't recall where I first got that quote, but it sure fits when working on these old bikes.
Leo

Just finished adding new fuel tank I bought from Mike's. Wanting to listen to the engine I kick started it after getting the grinding sound using the electric start. She started right up after a kick or two. So I bolted the left cover on but did not get to check out the clutch setup. Next day a friend came by and I tried to show him the engine running. To my surprise the kick lever swung through it's arc without engaging the motor and flipping the crank . I found this thread in a Google search and plan to go out and check the clutch cable again tomorrow.

The kick start uses gears in the tranny and the clutch to turn the engine. When you put the left cover on the clutch needs to be adjusted. Right now the clutch is too tight, its partly disengaged, this lets the clutch slip enough so the engine won't turn over. Adjust the clutch, then the kick start will work. ,
Leo

I corrected the 'kick starter not engaging' problem by replacing the clutch push rod with a stock one off an old XS650. The one piece I bought off Mike's wasn't the correct length. As soon as I replaced it, everything worked great.