damn it! still wont start!!!!

chit!!! Ive got a friends 71, all original, 700 miles
In 93, he was racing it, and it locked up at 90mph. he let it cool down, and it re-started, and got him home. it smoked like crazy, but it ran.
He gave it a ring job and a honing, says he put it back together just as it came apart. the most it would do it sputter, and die.
fast forward 17 years, and its my turn.
full battery, new points, strong spark, chain/valves adjusted. the atu disk, and pionts cam is lined up, compresiion is 95/110, holds compression(no leaky valves) 95% sure the cam is set properly to the crank. the spark plugs are new bpr7's gapped at .025, points are set per the xs1-b's service manual.
I cleaned out the carbs, the float needles looked fine, cleaned the emulsion tubes, jets, 1 turn out on the idle screws.
Gave it a shot of either, and filled the bowls with fresh gas, started kicking




and kicking




and kicking





Got it to spit thru the carbs a few times, I thought i had it when it actually started with the choke on full, was able to idle, even. sounded ok. reached for screwdriver to adj the idle screws, and it died. filled the bowls back up, started kicking




and kicking





and kicking
only getting spitting from the carbs, and an occasional blub,blub from the exhaust.
Then it starts blowing the main fuse, wich is the only fuse. I have the airboxes off, so the batterybox is just kinda hangin, so what I think was shorting, was the power wire(brown/white stripe) to the blinker unit under the batt box. so I zip tie the batbox up so that wont happen again. I converted the glass fuse to a blade. those thing cost quite a bit when your hunting down a short.
It has a very strong magnetic pull from the rotor when I turn the ign on.
Ive been trying to test the regulator and the rectifier, but I think my meter is broken.
I have my meter at 200ohms, my meter zeros out, but, when I touch the black to ground, and the red probe to the appropriate wires, my meter shows "1 ." , does this mean the regulator is bad? same with the regulator. no broken wires, all connections look perfect and clean. I want to ride this piece of history. its as old as me. and Ive never rode a stock 650.
I got my 80 650 in crates, and its close to being done, but just want to feel the difference between a stocker 650, and a hardtailed 680.

help.

When you kick it through can you feel the compression? The reason I ask is because I had my clutch adjust to far out and as I kicked a cold motor , it would kick through but didn't feel much compression resistance.Be sure to have a fully charged battery. Swap out for some different new plugs. Hope this helps. To check cam timing....

http://www.650motorcycles.com/CamTiming.html

Maybe look through inxs thread, go down the list, possibly see something you have missed or that turn on the old light bulb above your head. ..he says compression 100 and under is poor by the way.
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390

well, i'm guessing it has low compression because it never ran after the new rings, so...rings not seated
checking points index pin hole now!

checked the index hole as described on the link from u, pumps. it dead on. head scratcher. hmmmmmm.......what do the new plugs look like? pull them. soaked! spray with carb cleaner, blow em dry, check gap at.030, put em back in. ...choke...fill bowls with gas, a pop at first, then fired up. got it to idle high and smooth with the choke on, then turned choke off, purred like a kitten, well, a kitten that hasnt purred for a while!!. a little turn here, a little turn there, turn the box fan on high. sounding good.
Then I hear the chirp. I figure" ive read these do that" so, I check the charging, at just under 25k, its charging at 14.2 volts. at idle, battery sits at 12.4. yayayayayay.
But wait, what is that white powder coming from the advance side? Shit!!!!
The backing plate the advance weights sit on is scraping the housing base. glad I had the covers off.
It looks like one of the posts that one of the springs anchors to is scraping the alum ever so slightly. is ther suposed to be a washer between the plate and the housing base? the scrape isnt deep, but i can feel it with my finger nail.
Also, looks like the whole advance plate is moving in/out about 2mm. Ive read thats normal too, but......
what gives? the 10mm nuts are tight on both ends of the advance rod, nice and greasy. the counter wieghts spring back like ive seen on here.
Well, atleast I got it running, and charging. the scraping is probly something I missed. yes, the star wheel was tight, and the three big screws that hold the housing base on are also tight.

so I took the advance rod out, cleaned/ greased. get the three big screws tighter, put it all back together, doesnt scrape anymore.
now that I can consistaly start it, I can start tunning it. the left carb(38's) seems in good tune, but the right only runs smooth with the choke on. I tried to richen it up, but it floods/dies, if im quik enuf, I can catch it whith the choke so I dont have to kick it again. guesse i'll pull the carbs and clean the pilot circiuts AGAIN. I need some damn boots. kicking it over wearing chuck taylor's is the sux
I checked the timming, and it is within the first 2 marks, and advances (what I would guesse) properly, but the timming flutters at idle. it looks like the pionts plate is all the way back, so I put it in the middle. wont start for nuthin'. put it back were it was, starts up.
think my carbs are out of sync? also, all the spitting out the rite carb makes me think that intake valve is too tight. I had them set at in=.004/out=.006. I'll check it again tomorow. thumbs up though on the progress.

How old are the points and condensers? What are the points gapped at? If the gap is off it throws the timing off too.

The timing may be fluttering at idle so much because of all the end play in the advance rod. When I shimmed that out of mine, it stabilized the timing marks a lot.

Being out of or almost out of adjustment on the timing plate can indicate a stretched timing chain. Mine was like that until I installed a new chain. The new chain put the timing plate back to about the middle of it's adjustment slot.

Carb sync on that dual cable model is nothing more than matching idle speed carb to carb and then matching cable freeplay on both. Equal freeplay in each cable makes the butterfly plates begin to open at the same time. Matched idle speed has them open the same small amount to begin with.

So you don't know exactly what you did to make it start running, huh?

points are new, set at .3mm, new condenser how do you shim the advance rod? after I stopped it from scraping, it didnt seem to move as much, and the cam chain is set so its flush in there. could be stretched, since the points plate is at its limit.
I did notice the rite throttle cable was more slack than the left, when I tried to match them, i ran out of adjustment. wich do you adjust first? the cable adjusters up by the throttle, or down at the carb?
I believe what gave it it's best shot at starting was new points, condenser, cleaned out carbs, new plugs, a little solder work on coil connections, and a lot of kicking.
so, tomorow, I will set the cables, and re-set the points. i know i'm close.

When you installed the notched ring on the advance, did you face the raised lip towards the outside? It looks wrong at 1st but that's the way it should be installed. To shim the advance rod, you add shims on the rod under the points cam. It's metric but 1/2" I.D. American size shims fit, are cheaper, and more readily available.

I thought there was only a cable adjuster at the top of the throttle cables. The bottom just fits in a holder and hooks into the butterfly lever. When you sync a dual cable set-up, set idle speed 1st, then set cable freeplays. When you set the idle speed, you're raising or lowering the cable arm. This adds or subtracts freeplay from the cable so must be done 1st before syncing the cables. In the future, if you adjust idle speed again, turn the idle speed screw on each carb equally or you'll throw the cable sync off.

You went from
Glad you got her running. She looks like a sweet ride.

5twins said:

When you installed the notched ring on the advance, did you face the raised lip towards the outside? It looks wrong at 1st but that's the way it should be installed. To shim the advance rod, you add shims on the rod under the points cam. It's metric but 1/2" I.D. American size shims fit, are cheaper, and more readily available.

I thought there was only a cable adjuster at the top of the throttle cables. The bottom just fits in a holder and hooks into the butterfly lever. When you sync a dual cable set-up, set idle speed 1st, then set cable freeplays. When you set the idle speed, you're raising or lowering the cable arm. This adds or subtracts freeplay from the cable so must be done 1st before syncing the cables. In the future, if you adjust idle speed again, turn the idle speed screw on each carb equally or you'll throw the cable sync off.

Click to expand...

about the atu rod, I'll have a check, but I bet its reversed. but it doesnt scrape anymore.
and the throttle, thats kinda what i meant. so, use the idle speed to take out the slack and eyeball it equal, then take the slack from the throttle sleeve with the adjusters close to the throttle.

To adjust your throttle cables, start by loosening the cables at the throttle for lots of freeplay.
Now with the engine idling, pull one spark plug. Now on the cylinder still running back the idle speed screw out until the engine stalls.
Put the plug wire back one restart the bike, pull the other plug wire. Back the idle screw on the other cylinder out till the bike stalls.
Hook the plug wire back up. Restart the engine. The idle will be very high, now back off the idle speed screws the same an mount till the idle speed is correct.
Now you have your idle speed right and the carbs partially synced. To finish the sync. With the engine off adjust one cable to 1/8 inch freeplay. Lock this cable down.
Now with the other cable tighten it to a point where when you start to turn the throttle both carbs arms where the cables hook start to move at the same time. To do this I watch the right side carb, on the left I lightly touch the arm where the cable hooks. That way as I turn the throttle i can tell just when thins start to move.
On your points I might try opening up the gap to .4 mm. This will change when the points open, this may let the points backing plate move toward the center of the adjuster.
Some times you may even need to set the points to different settings to get both sets timed right.

is that the dead cylinder method? thats the first easy description on how to do it. will have to wait till tomorow. Ive got to clean my garage. last night I had a make-shift gastank made from a 1 liter bottle with the bottom cut off, feeding these carbs, and it tipped over, and 2 cups of gas dumped on the hot motor. if it caught fire, ide been trapped. i'm making shelves in there for the missus, and its all torn up, and I wouldnt have been able to get a flaming bike outta there with all the junk in the way. i'll report back tommorow afternoon.

Pretty much. I have the Pamco with green monster coil on my 75. I cant just unplug a wire.
I built adapters out of some scrap aluminum and a couple nails. I drilled and tapped some holes in the aluminum to match the threads on the spark plugs. Threaded some nails the right size to thread into the aluminum. I pull the plug wires off the plugs, screw the aluminum parts on the plugs, screw the nails into the aluminum parts, plug the wires on the nails.
Now with the engine running and I want to kill one cylinder, like to adjust the idle mix screws, I just use a jumper wire from a cylinder fin to the aluminum and it grounds the spark and shuts the cylinder down. Much safer for the coil, and myself. 75,000 volts of spark into me ain't fun.
Is there a lawn mower repair place close by? I use a gas tank off an old garden tractor for a test tank. Much safer than a soda bottle. I have a shut off on the tank and plenty of gas line and tees so I can hook it up to most anything.

You can make cylinder grounding tools like Leo described out of old spokes. Turns out a spoke nipple has the same threads as the spark plug top so they screw right on .....



I alternately ground each side using a long screwdriver from the tool to the head. You can quickly jump side to side and compare running speed.

5twins said:

You can make cylinder grounding tools like Leo described out of old spokes. Turns out a spoke nipple has the same threads as the spark plug top so they screw right on .....

I alternately ground each side using a long screwdriver from the tool to the head. You can quickly jump side to side and compare running speed.

Click to expand...

that looks easier. except i have no spare spokes.
made a escape path out of my garage. i'm re-thinking my alternate fuel delivery system.
i have a honda 4horse that i can grab the tank off of.

so i swiped the gas tank off my 4horse honda and made a frame work to secure it level on the backbone. much safer than a bottomless soda bottle.
so ive done every thing i can think of. I have spark, dry plugs, fuel in the bowls, coils wired to corresponding point set, new condenser, points cam/atu line up, atu weights snap back good, cleaned out carbs, mix screws 1/4 out,+12volts with ign on new plugs. ppoints are set at .4 (should be .3 but the cam chain could be stretched, so this compensates). it started rightup, had to blip the throttle to keep it running, while reaching for screwdriver to adj the idle, it died.
i puuled the plugs, and wet. while they dried out after spray with carb cleaner, cleared out the cylinders, put the plugs back in(.028).
just wont start. it kicks back so hard sometime i see stars, and i have to take a break.
what the hell?
i know i'm sooo close to it running on its own, so i keep trying.
i know the cam is lined up with the crank propperly, valves are set .004=in/.006=out. points at .406.
i cleaned out the carbs, but am getting the impression the pilot passages are plugged. only runs when choked. i had them cleared, and have always had a filter on it, i checked the floats, set at 25mm, when i had the floats out, i put them in a glass of hot water, no bubbles, but i think one is sinking in the gas bowl, because one time i pulled the bowl plug to see if there was gas getting in there, and there wasnt much gas in the left carb.
what am i missing????

Sinking in the bowl would mean more gas, not less. But anyway, I've heard there are some carbs that just won't work. Maybe try the pair from your own bike for a test?

i thought of that, but I dont have the early flat carb mounts that would fit the 34's i have.

I wonder why the compression is so low after he gave it a ring job. Below 100 is real low. It's never done anything but sputter since the ring job 17 years ago. Something or a lot of things are messed up with the engine now I bet. I would understand the compression problem first.