Some fuel mixture screw advice may be needed

Jaymichael

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Greetings all. Ive got a 74 tx650 with bs38 carbs. Carbs were overhauled by rick at oldschool carbs. Engine is freshly rebuilt with a heiden 750 kit. I have not been inside my carbs to see what jets are currently installed and when Rick did the overhaul I had told him the engine was going to be stock configuration (I had not decided on the 750 kit at that time) so I suspect I will require some rejetting. Off the top I have to give thanks for the wonderful carb tuning guide supplied by this community, its already helped a ton in getting me up to speed on how my carbs function.

Now for my current situation. Bike fired and ran decent right from first kick. My idle mixture screws were set to 1 full turn out on both. I used a monometer to balance contribution between both cylinders and set my idle to around 1000 rpm. Engine starts nice everytime, idles real nice but I did notice a bit of black smoke from the pipes at idle. Pulling the plugs confirmed they have quite a bit of black soot forming on both indicating a rich idle.

Today I followed the dead cylinder method in the carb guide. I disabled 1 cylinder, adjusted the running cylinder down to the lowest stable idle with the idle screw and started adjusting the mixture screw. Right away I found the more I turned it out (counter clock wise) the lower my idle would go, and it would start to stumble or stall. I then tried screwing it in (clockwise) and the idle improved. Eventually I found that highest idle came with the mixture screw turned all the way in until it stopped. I tried turning the screw out again but came to the same conclusion, the highest idle was found with the screw turned all the way in. I repeated the process on the other cylinder to the same result.

After adjusting both mixture screws to fully turned in I again synchronized both cylinders using the monometer. Engine seems real smooth at idle, snappy throttle and I am not seeing the same black smoke from the pipes, indicating that I have leaned it out more than it was originally.

Now, I have to say I am a bit perplexed. I wasn't expecting the result of having to screw the mixture screws in that far, and If I have closed them completely I am wondering I may be well served to drop a size on my pilot jets. Considering I have increased my displacement 100 cc's this isn't making a whole lotta sense to me?

I think in the morning I'm going to swap in a pair of clean plugs and run it a few times and see if they are sooting up as bad as before.

What do you guys think? Am I missing something here or on the right track?
Any thoughts super appreciated.
 
That does sound odd. I've never heard of having to close the mix screws completely. You're definitely rich in the idle circuit if you can do that and it still runs. Probably best to check what pilots you have. Stock for that carb set is a #45 of the BS30/96 type. Maybe someone stuck VM22/210 type pilots in there.

Pilots.jpg
 
Thanks for the reply 5twins, and to help me confirm that something is not quite right.
I'll take a look at the style of pilots that are in my carbs and report back
 
Adding the 100 cc's won't effect the carb tuning much if any.
I did a 750 kit on my 75. Thinking a would need to rejet, I spent two weeks fooling with the carbs. After all that it ran the best with the set up I used on it as a 650.
I was running 76/77 carbs at the time and ran 1 up on the pilots and two up on the mains.
I might suggest starting with that.
Air filters and exhaust will have a much greater effect on jetting than the cc bump.
Leo
 
Ok, sorry for this taking a few days, finally over this nasty cold. I pulled my pilot jets today and confirmed that they are the correct BS30/96 #45 stock size, same as the left one in 5 twins picture above. That still leaves me confused on this issue, how could I be running rich at idle with stock pilot jets with my mixture screws turned all the way in clockwise until they stop? I guess I should try running it for a bit with some clean plugs to see what happens, if my plugs don't soot up as bad as before perhaps I'll just leave them set as is. As mentioned before following the carb guide procedure I achieved my highest and smoothest idle with the screws turned all the way in. As soon as I started backing them out idle dropped and eventually got rough and stalled. As is it the bike idles spot on. If my plugs are still sooting up I guess I could try a smaller pilot jet? Unless I'm missing something else? Any thoughts?
 
Ok, sorry for this taking a few days, finally over this nasty cold. I pulled my pilot jets today and confirmed that they are the correct BS30/96 #45 stock size, same as the left one in 5 twins picture above. That still leaves me confused on this issue, how could I be running rich at idle with stock pilot jets with my mixture screws turned all the way in clockwise until they stop? I guess I should try running it for a bit with some clean plugs to see what happens, if my plugs don't soot up as bad as before perhaps I'll just leave them set as is. As mentioned before following the carb guide procedure I achieved my highest and smoothest idle with the screws turned all the way in. As soon as I started backing them out idle dropped and eventually got rough and stalled. As is it the bike idles spot on. If my plugs are still sooting up I guess I could try a smaller pilot jet? Unless I'm missing something else? Any thoughts?

I have the same issue, but only on my left carb:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43270

To date, I still haven't figured it out...pilot jet seems secure, no leaks that I can tell...floats adjusted spot on, all stock everything.... I've been running the bike with that carb set at the best spot (3/4 turn) and so far seems to be ok...and I'm trying to enjoy the bike as much as I can before I tear into it again.

My next steps are to test the various possibilities now that I have a rebuild kit to play with (mixture screw itself could be bad or float needle valve, float leaking/filling up with fuel, etc. ) but I haven't yet torn the carbs down since my last inspection.

If you find an answer, let me know. :)
 
Ya, that's really odd...but at least it's symmetrical so you know that they are both off evenly and what ever was done to them was on purpose.

My initial thought for me was that the jet needle clip setting on mine was down one or two rings, letting fuel in at idle...but that wasn't the case. However, you may want to check yours?
 
On the Idle circuit fuel flows to the pilot jet, there is a port in the bell of the carb, where the air cleaner fits. These ports feed air to the main and pilot jets. This air mixes with the fuel as it passes through the pilot jets.
This air/fuel mix flows up through a passage to the mix screw as well as onto two holes up by the throttle plates. This mix that flows out by the throttle plates is only part of the idle mix, the rest comes past the mix screw through another passage to the third hole by the throttle plates.
The mix screw adjusts about one third of the total mix.
I'm not a great carb guy, but from what I understand if the mix screw has little to no effect on idle, then you need a bigger pilot.
Leo
 
His mix screws are having an effect, he just needs to turn them in all the way for best running. That's very odd. He's shutting off 25 to 30% of the flow from the pilot jet. That would seem to indicate the circuit is too rich.

CDNTX650 may have hit on the problem. These are old bikes, some very much abused by P.O.s. Maybe someone in the past cranked those mix screws in so tight that the metering holes into the main bore are now deformed. Or maybe someone poked through the other 3 holes to clear them and enlarged them in the process. The holes are so small, it would be pretty hard to see this. Substitution of a known good carb may be the only way to diagnose things. I hate to say it, but a different set of carbs may be the only cure. If it comes to that, a newer linked set would be best.
 
Thanks for the comments everyone. We still have this damn cold laying havoc to our household so i haven't spent much time exploring this. I did swap in some new plugs with both mixture screws set at 1/4 turn from fully screwed in and have run it off and on a few times including a 5 min gentle cruise around my neighborhood. As mentioned the bike idles real nice and is nice and snappy off idle. I pulled the new plugs and they are looking more golden brown than black like they were when set at around 1 turn out before. Hopefully play around with it a bit more when I'm feeling a 100% again. Trying to find some time to haul it into work, we have a mustang dyno with 5 gas analyzer, wouldn't mind getting it on the sniffer to see where it's really at on idle
 
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