1st start of season / headlight went out

[snyder650]

Hello,

I tried to get this resolved on another xs site, but I'm not getting very far. Maybe someone here can help.

I started my 650 up the other morning for the first time this season, and rode it around our neighborhood addition. Part way through the headlight, and the gauge illumination lights went out. Seemed to run fine. Taillight, Turn Signals, Neutral light, etc still work.

I'm getting 6.2 to 6.3 volts dc off the yellow wire going to the safety relay.

I took the covers off the safety relay(s) today, and jumping the yellow wire to 12 v for just a moment to see if one or both of the 2 safety relays (the starter and headlight) would click. Both click.

I started the bike up with the safety relay covers off, and both safety relays engage once the engine starts, and stay engaged till I turn the engine off. But yet, the headlight & gauge light illumination light don't come on.

I tried jumping a wire into the wire harness where the blue / black wire coming out of the safety relay to 12 v, and the lights come on, and the top relay also engages (which I'm assuming is the headlight safety relay), but the lower relay (which might be the starter safety relay) does not.

Then just a while ago, I check the voltage at the blue / black wire coming off the relays while the engine was running. It wass only reading 0.02 volts with the engine running and the relay engage. :/

Which obviously is not enough, but what does that mean, as far as what's wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
-Andy

 

[snyder650]

Hello,

I tried to get this resolved on another xs site, but I'm not getting very far. Maybe someone here can help.

I started my 650 up the other morning for the first time this season, and rode it around our neighborhood addition. Part way through the headlight, and the gauge illumination lights went out. Seemed to run fine. Taillight, Turn Signals, Neutral light, etc still work.

I'm getting 6.2 to 6.3 volts dc off the yellow wire going to the safety relay.

I took the covers off the safety relay(s) today, and jumping the yellow wire to 12 v for just a moment to see if one or both of the 2 safety relays (the starter and headlight) would click. Both click.

I started the bike up with the safety relay covers off, and both safety relays engage once the engine starts, and stay engaged till I turn the engine off. But yet, the headlight & gauge light illumination light don't come on.

I tried jumping a wire into the wire harness where the blue / black wire coming out of the safety relay to 12 v, and the lights come on, and the top relay also engages (which I'm assuming is the headlight safety relay), but the lower relay (which might be the starter safety relay) does not.

Then just a while ago, I check the voltage at the blue / black wire coming off the relays while the engine was running. It wass only reading 0.02 volts with the engine running and the relay engage. :/

Which obviously is not enough, but what does that mean, as far as what's wrong?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
-Andy

Ok. I just tried the stuff on this site:
http://www.mikesxs.net/ken_maxwell/SafetyRelayOperation.htm

It seems my relay is defective afterall according to that page. The voltage on the R/Y wire is no where near the 12 volts on the 2 R/W wire with the key on. And the blue/black wire when running.

 

[retiredgentleman]

The Safety Relay is quite reliable.................I doubt that is your problem.

The original 4 position (glass type) fuse holders are worn out on these bikes. The headlight fuse holder (or fuse) clips weaken/corrode and cause high resistance. This may be the reason you are losing voltage to the red/yellow wire.

Start up your engine, and use your voltmeter to measure the voltage at both sides of the headlight fuse holder. The supply to the headlight fuse holder (brown wire) should be at approx 13 volts, and the red/yellow on the load side of the fuse holder should also be at approx 13 volts. If the SR is working, then the blue/black wire exiting the SR should also be at 13 volts.

Regardless of what you find, its a must to replace all 4 fuse holders with new automotive blade type fuse holders.

 

[snyder650]

Hi retiredgentleman,

I took a look at the fuses. Looks like I have 3 glass tube type left, and 1 blade type that's been put in with crimp butt wire connections :/

Of the 3 glass tube type left I have the following:
red / yellow to red /yellow
brown to brown
red / white to red / white

I'm got above 12 volts across the red/yellow, but less than a volt across the other colors with the motor running. Don't know if that tells us anything different or not.

?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi retiredgentleman,

I took a look at the fuses. Looks like I have 3 glass tube type left, and 1 blade type that's been put in with crimp butt wire connections :/

Of the 3 glass tube type left I have the following:
red / yellow to red /yellow
brown to brown
red / white to red / white

I'm got above 12 volts across the red/yellow, but less than a volt across the other colors with the motor running. Don't know if that tells us anything different or not.

?

OK , I see Yamaha changed some of the wire colours on 81 to 83 years.

If your voltmeter measured 12 volts from one terminal to the other terminal of the red/yellow fuse holder, that means you have an open circuit for the headlight fuse holder. Your meter should measure close to zero volts across the fuse holder.

As I said previously, the solution is to replace those 3 worn out fuse holders with automotive blade type fuse holders. No crimping allowed..............solder all connections and use heat shrink insulation tubing.

 

[snyder650]

Yeah. I'm not sure what year the wiring is. This bike is a street tracker that I got at a swap meet a few years back. The frame numbers and title say it's a 79'. The motor numbers say it's a 78'. That's probably part of my problem. A horse from every town on this bike.

I guess I don't understand... Shouldn't I have 12 volts going across all the fuses all the time? Or is the power being switched on / off before the fuses?

If I convert over to blade type fuses, and re-do the blade one that's there, is that likely going to fix the headlight issue? Or does the voltage across the red / yellow wire fuse indicate problems elsewhere too?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[5twins]

By the looks of that fuse box, I would replace it anyway. The last guy already had to replace one. For now, check the fuses in there. They should all be 10 amps except the main. That should be a 20. You may also want to ditch the RLU. I see it's still installed. That can cause headlight problems if it's gone bad - and they do go bad. Removal and bypass is simple and I feel it's something that should be done even if that contraption is still working. Here's the info on removing it .....

http://www.excess650.co.uk/tips & tricks.htm

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yeah. I'm not sure what year the wiring is. This bike is a street tracker that I got at a swap meet a few years back. The frame numbers and title say it's a 79'. The motor numbers say it's a 78'. That's probably part of my problem. A horse from every town on this bike.

I guess I don't understand... Shouldn't I have 12 volts going across all the fuses all the time? Or is the power being switched on / off before the fuses?

If I convert over to blade type fuses, and re-do the blade one that's there, is that likely going to fix the headlight issue? Or does the voltage across the red / yellow wire fuse indicate problems elsewhere too?

Thanks,
Andy

Yes, your knowledge of basic electrical trouble shooting is very weak. You would need to understand how ohm's law works on a simple DC circuit.

From what you tell me, the headlight fuse holder is open circuit, and therefore no current can flow to the headlight.

Don't try to think "is there problems elsewhere". On these old neglected bikes, you repair one problem at a time. Re-do your fuse holders to blade type, and then we will see how the electrics work. If another problem rears its ugly head, then we will deal with it at the time.

 

[snyder650]

Yes, your knowledge of basic electrical trouble shooting is very weak. You would need to understand how ohm's law works on a simple DC circuit.

From what you tell me, the headlight fuse holder is open circuit, and therefore no current can flow to the headlight.

Don't try to think "is there problems elsewhere". On these old neglected bikes, you repair one problem at a time. Re-do your fuse holders to blade type, and then we will see how the electrics work. If another problem rears its ugly head, then we will deal with it at the time.

Your right. It is very weak. But, I've done very little electrical trouble shooting in the past. I've wired up many car stereos, amps, speakers, air horns, wolf whistles; But this is a different animal to me.

I've never taken a multi-meter, and touched the leads to each side of a horn, or wolf whistle fuse of the power lead from the battery to see what was there. That's why I'm asking.

I went to Napa tonight to see what they had for fuse holders. The guy behind the counter is going to order some kind of blade fuse block, and have it for me to look at tomorrow to see if it will work. I hate to have 4 loose blade fuse holders just under the seat, but the fuse blocks I've seen pictured only have one power input for all the fuses.

I looked up Ohm's law for DC circuits after your reply. E=IR or Voltage = Current*Resistance. Since the system is 12 volts, and the fuse max is 10 amps, then would the max resistance be 1.2 Ohms? Sorry. Hope I'm not making you mad.

I'm willing to learn, if you're willing to teach. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Andy

 

[XSLeo]

I like the fuse holders from Radio Shack. They have a cap.
If you want to check voltages on your fuses, hold the black meter lead on a good frame ground or at the negative of the battery. Then touch the red lead to the fuses.
On the stock 79 harness, power flows out of the battery to the 20 amp main fuse, up to the key switch. With the key on, power flows out the brown wire back to the other three 10 amp fuses.
So with the meter probes as described, with the key off you should get battery voltage at both sides of the main fuse. With the key on you should get battery voltage at both sides of the other fuses.
If you don't get a voltage reading on both sides of a fuse this way, then you have a blown fuse.
Touching the meter leads to both ends of a fuse is the same as touching both leads to battery positive, you won't get much if any reading.
Leo

 

[XSLeo]

Oh, on the wire colors at the fuses, the red/white is ignition, brown is main power to the bike, red/yellow is lighting.
Leo

 

[snyder650]

By the looks of that fuse box, I would replace it anyway. The last guy already had to replace one. For now, check the fuses in there. They should all be 10 amps except the main. That should be a 20. You may also want to ditch the RLU. I see it's still installed. That can cause headlight problems if it's gone bad - and they do go bad. Removal and bypass is simple and I feel it's something that should be done even if that contraption is still working. Here's the info on removing it .....

http://www.excess650.co.uk/tips & tricks.htm

Tried unhooking the RLU, and just connecting the 2 wires on the above link. I didn't have any luck. Started the bike. Still no light.

I did look at the fuses, and they seem a bit weird. The blade one that a previous owner put in is 20 amps. Then all the glass tubes say 32V on one end (32 volt?); Then on the opposite end two of them say 14A, and one says 15A.

So maybe the blade one is correct at 20 amps, and the other three should be replaced with 10 amps?

Thanks,
Andy

 

[XSLeo]

The main fuse is a 20 amp, the other three are 10 amps. Most all the round glass fuses are 32 volts. The amp rating is what's important.
Not just replaced with 10 amp fuses but new fuse holders. Those old glass fuse holders were fine when new but 30+ years have turned them into scrap.
Leo

 

[xjwmx]

Without checking, I think the headlight and instrument lights come off a single wire that originates at the key switch. I think it's the brown one. I think there's red, blue, and brown, and blue goes to the tail light and red is the power source in. Check power at that wire, with the motor running. Also, 6 volts at the yellow wire you mentioned is normal.

 

[snyder650]

I like the fuse holders from Radio Shack. They have a cap.
If you want to check voltages on your fuses, hold the black meter lead on a good frame ground or at the negative of the battery. Then touch the red lead to the fuses.
On the stock 79 harness, power flows out of the battery to the 20 amp main fuse, up to the key switch. With the key on, power flows out the brown wire back to the other three 10 amp fuses.
So with the meter probes as described, with the key off you should get battery voltage at both sides of the main fuse. With the key on you should get battery voltage at both sides of the other fuses.
If you don't get a voltage reading on both sides of a fuse this way, then you have a blown fuse.
Touching the meter leads to both ends of a fuse is the same as touching both leads to battery positive, you won't get much if any reading.
Leo

Ah ha! I didn't know what I was doing. I thought I was supposed to put the black lead on one side of the fuse, and the red lead on the opposite side of the fuse. I'm a fool. lol.

Ok. I did as you said. Red led to each side of fuse, black lead to battery ground. With the bike running, I'm getting voltage everywhere, except on the red / yellow wire. BUT get this. Looking at my picture, the top wire is the red / yellow wire. When I touch the lead to the right side, and to ground it reads 0, -0.01, or -0.02. BUT When I touch the lead to the left side, and to ground it, it takes a moment but the lights come on, and I have voltage.

I took the fuse out. It didn't look blown. I put a different one in, and it still didn't work. Then I tried, wiggling the end I was getting 0, to -0.02, and the light came on sometimes.

So I guess that is the problem.

Which is good... but after reading http://www.mikesxs.net/ken_maxwell/S...yOperation.htm, and doing the tests on there, I bought a safety relay off ebay for $80 plus shipping. Cause it's new factory one still in the box. I was pricing them, some of the used ones were more than that. Bikebandit wanted $111.61, but listed as unavailable. Speed and Sport Inc had 1, and they want $184.55. When I saw a new one for $80, I snatched it.

Guess I'll be re-Ebaying that. New fuses holders, and then I'm going to tackle the led turn signal mirrors. Hopefully without issues.

Thanks,
Andy

 

[retiredgentleman]

I like the fuse holders from Radio Shack. They have a cap.
If you want to check voltages on your fuses, hold the black meter lead on a good frame ground or at the negative of the battery. Then touch the red lead to the fuses.
On the stock 79 harness, power flows out of the battery to the 20 amp main fuse, up to the key switch. With the key on, power flows out the brown wire back to the other three 10 amp fuses.
So with the meter probes as described, with the key off you should get battery voltage at both sides of the main fuse. With the key on you should get battery voltage at both sides of the other fuses.
If you don't get a voltage reading on both sides of a fuse this way, then you have a blown fuse.
Touching the meter leads to both ends of a fuse is the same as touching both leads to battery positive, you won't get much if any reading.
Leo

XSLeo;

It was obvious that snyder650 was uncertain how to test using a meter. However, since he wanted to put his meter leads on each end of the fuse holder, that is still a valid method to test if a fuse or a fuse holder is open circuit. A working fuse holder/fuse is a short circuit and therefore has almost zero voltage across it. A defective fuse holder/fuse is an open circuit and therefore has suppy voltage (i.e. 12 volts) across the terminals. When he said he had 12 volts across the red/yellow fuse holder, that means the fuse holder had failed as an open circuit, which is what they do when they are 30+ years old.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Your right. It is very weak. But, I've done very little electrical trouble shooting in the past. I've wired up many car stereos, amps, speakers, air horns, wolf whistles; But this is a different animal to me.

I've never taken a multi-meter, and touched the leads to each side of a horn, or wolf whistle fuse of the power lead from the battery to see what was there. That's why I'm asking.

I went to Napa tonight to see what they had for fuse holders. The guy behind the counter is going to order some kind of blade fuse block, and have it for me to look at tomorrow to see if it will work. I hate to have 4 loose blade fuse holders just under the seat, but the fuse blocks I've seen pictured only have one power input for all the fuses.

I looked up Ohm's law for DC circuits after your reply. E=IR or Voltage = Current*Resistance. Since the system is 12 volts, and the fuse max is 10 amps, then would the max resistance be 1.2 Ohms? Sorry. Hope I'm not making you mad.

I'm willing to learn, if you're willing to teach. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Andy

Yes, if you're a neat and tidy guy, then you may want to use a 4 position fuse block. You can't use the type that just has the one power input for all 4 fuses, unless you can rewire the input side of the fuse block. I believe they are also available with the 4 fuse holder positions unwired. With them unwired, you can wire them up as required.

I'm cheap, so I just used 4 single inline fuse holders and they just lay in an ugly mess on top of my battery.

I like your interest in learning..............most lads just want a quick fix for their problem.
If you really want to learn why you measured 12 volts across the defective red/yellow fuse holder, here is a link for you to read, and increase your electrical knowledge.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_6/2.html

Kirchoff's Voltage Law has some examples to explain what happens in a DC circuit. In your case, you have a 12 volt battery going through a fuse to a resistor called a headlight. The 12 volts should have been dropped across the headlight, but because the fuse holder was defective the 12 volts appeared across the fuse holder.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Ah ha! I didn't know what I was doing. I thought I was supposed to put the black lead on one side of the fuse, and the red lead on the opposite side of the fuse. I'm a fool. lol.

Ok. I did as you said. Red led to each side of fuse, black lead to battery ground. With the bike running, I'm getting voltage everywhere, except on the red / yellow wire. BUT get this. Looking at my picture, the top wire is the red / yellow wire. When I touch the lead to the right side, and to ground it reads 0, -0.01, or -0.02. BUT When I touch the lead to the left side, and to ground it, it takes a moment but the lights come on, and I have voltage.

I took the fuse out. It didn't look blown. I put a different one in, and it still didn't work. Then I tried, wiggling the end I was getting 0, to -0.02, and the light came on sometimes.

So I guess that is the problem.

Which is good... but after reading http://www.mikesxs.net/ken_maxwell/S...yOperation.htm, and doing the tests on there, I bought a safety relay off ebay for $80 plus shipping. Cause it's new factory one still in the box. I was pricing them, some of the used ones were more than that. Bikebandit wanted $111.61, but listed as unavailable. Speed and Sport Inc had 1, and they want $184.55. When I saw a new one for $80, I snatched it.

Guess I'll be re-Ebaying that. New fuses holders, and then I'm going to tackle the led turn signal mirrors. Hopefully without issues.

Thanks,
Andy

NO, you're not a fool. Testing on both ends of the fuse holder is a valid way to test if a fuse holder/fuse is defective. Do some reading on the link I gave you, and you'll understand what and why you measured. There are several ways to test a DC circuit, you chose to use one of the ways.

As you can see, if you do a little study of basic electrical theory, you won't be spending money for parts you don't need.

 

[XSLeo]

I have found the way I described is easy for me on the bikes I work on. May not be the only way, just the way I do it.
Now on the LED turn signals you will need to get a flasher that can flash LED's. I like the one from www.superbrightleds.com The LF1-S-Flat $8.95. When you get it you remover the wires from the plastic they are in. Then you can plug the Flat blades into the stock flasher socket. The socket wire colors you use are the brown and brown/white. The flasher can have either a red or grey wire and a black wire. The red or grey wire plugs in where the brown wire is, the black to the brown/white wire.
Leo

 

[snyder650]

Yes, if you're a neat and tidy guy, then you may want to use a 4 position fuse block. You can't use the type that just has the one power input for all 4 fuses, unless you can rewire the input side of the fuse block. I believe they are also available with the 4 fuse holder positions unwired. With them unwired, you can wire them up as required.

I'm cheap, so I just used 4 single inline fuse holders and they just lay in an ugly mess on top of my battery.

I like your interest in learning..............most lads just want a quick fix for their problem.
If you really want to learn why you measured 12 volts across the defective red/yellow fuse holder, here is a link for you to read, and increase your electrical knowledge.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_6/2.html

Kirchoff's Voltage Law has some examples to explain what happens in a DC circuit. In your case, you have a 12 volt battery going through a fuse to a resistor called a headlight. The 12 volts should have been dropped across the headlight, but because the fuse holder was defective the 12 volts appeared across the fuse holder.

Quick fixes are great, but knowing why the quick fix was needed, what to look for, and why it fixed the problem, is a whole lot more valuable. It's like that saying about, give a man a fish... teach a man to fish.

I looked at the link. Probably will take a while to digest all that information, but I will.

I'm not sure if I'm going to use a fuse block or not. I might gut out that black plastic stock fuse holder that has the black cover, and just put single in line fuse holders inside it.

Thanks for the help,
Andy