On the road again at 40.............the bike that is

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, Rob. Installing the clutch pushrod seal only puts force on the case, not the mainshaft. Installing the clutch pushrod bushing will force the mainshaft. However, the mainshaft and its double-row bearing won't move, the bearing is locked to the case with a half-moon clip.

The previously posted 447 clutch spacing dims were an amalgam of measurements from various postings and a couple items I measured long ago. Time to get serious. I dug out my old 256 clutch and took meticulous measurements.

To measure the basket's ID width, set the basket on a flat plate, and use your caliper's depth gauge.

Measurements in metric, significant digits where important.

***************************************
256 Clutch washers/spacing measurements:

1st thin washer: ID 25.2mm, OD 36mm, Thickness = 1.00mm

2nd thick washer: ID 25.2mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2.00mm

Spacer: ID = 25.02mm, OD = 34.98mm, Width = 30.02mm

3rd thin washer: ID 35.4mm, OD 51.7mm, Thickness = 1.00mm

Thrust bearing: ID 35.1mm, OD 51.3mm, Thickness = 2.00mm

4th thick washer: ID 25.2mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2mm

Basket (Housing): ID=35.03mm OD=52mm Thickness=26.87mm


Basket & Spacer clearances:

Basket/washer/bearing = 26.87 + 1 + 2 = 29.87mm

Spacer/Basket diametrical clearance = 35.03 - 34.98 = 0.05mm

Spacer/Basket endplay = 30.02 - 29.87 = 0.15mm
***************************************

When I built-up my 447 clutch conversion, the 447 parts were less worn, and I selected pieces that would give closer clearances. However, even with the old 256 clutch basket endplay of 0.15mm, there was never an indication of rattle or tick.

So, you think your endplay is 0.007"? That's less than I was expecting. Maybe not an issue after all, dunno. Sure seemed like a viable scenario. I guess we'll see how your next experiments progress...

 

[MaxPete]

D....I still wonder if the MikesXS/XS650 Direct radial roller thrust bearing isn’t just a bit thicker than a stock one....

....

 

[robinc]

the mainshaft and its double-row bearing won't move, the bearing is locked to the case with a half-moon clip

Dang it, I was hoping to be able to hit something back into place with a big hammer. (kidding..........well sort of)

Will go through it all again. I measured basket ID width with a large machinists square across the back, could have just as easily done it as you've shown. Sumtimes you get so close to and deep into something ya miss the obvious....eh?

Thanks again 2M. I really appreciate all you're doing here and just hope that I'm not wasting yours, and everyone else's time.
Maybe this isn't the source of my tick, but I am happy to go through in detail and ensure all is good here.

I gotta say, I don't mind wrenching on these bikes. In fact I enjoy it as much as riding. Would just like to be able to choose when I do either.
Sure would be nice to have one that I could ride, but I want to solve this first.

 

[Mailman]

Robin! I figured out the cure for your ticking noise!

Just having some fun with you man. Happy Father’s Day Papa! I don’t know about you but I’m stepping away from all this today.
Bob

 

[robinc]

HaHaHa. I Love it Bob. Right back atcha buddy. Have a good one.

I'm going to play for a little bit before the gang comes over.

And, Happy Fathers day to all you Fathers out there!

 

[MaxPete]

Thinkin’ about my daughters today.....

 

[5twins]

Watching your video, it doesn't seem to me like a steady tick, more a random or intermittent one. I would think that the clutch hub or pressure plate rubbing would produce more of a grinding, scraping, or squealing noise. Your tick is frequent but not steady like a loose valve tick. It sure does sound like something under that right cover is loose and randomly rattling around. I would try the "new" different clutch assembly and see if that changes anything. If not then one of the other assemblies in there might be the issue. Before re-assembly, I'd check all those for loose fitting/parts too (kick starter, starter gears, tach drive, oil pump).

I do get some random ticking or rattling from mine when idling and parked on the side stand because I left the little coil return spring off my starter gear assembly. But that is when leaned to the left, not the right like yours. Still, it seems that starter gear assembly was the last thing you fooled with in there.

 

[robinc]

Ok, thanks for the info and suggestions 5twins.

I will go through everything again.

 

[robinc]

oil pump

Hey now, didn't check that. I will do that first thing when I get back home.

Maybe?????

 

[robinc]

First of all, edited the original 447 Clutch Spacing Measurement Chart from post #1069
http://www.xs650.com/threads/on-the-road-again-at-40-the-bike-that-is.49360/page-54#post-553062

Had a little time today to look at some things.

Kickstart assembly seems solid. No rattles or noise. There is play in the kick start shaft, and I can move it quite a bit more 12 to 6 than 3 to 9. Maybe this movement is normal, and I would suspect since all the kick start force is generated vertically there would be more wear in that direction.

The starter gear assembly appears to be fine but I didn't have time to tear it down to inspect. I know it's working fine but will take it apart to verify lt's good.

Had a look at the oil pump and tach drive assemblies. I know my oil pump is working fine and there are no noises when I spin the gears.

Took a video of the noises that I can generate with my tach gears but since these are a relatively loose fit I would expect all to be able to make these noises.

Then did a bit of a splice of my initial ticking noise video and the noise after putting the case in place.

I don't know, this is getting pretty hard to distinguish between noises. The only way to verify if it is from the tach drive for sure I think would be after everything is assembled to hold the tach gear down and see if the noise stops.

When I have time over the next day or so I will remeasure everything and do up another chart comparing to 2M's latest data.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Okay, now compare that ticking noise with this.

Just more thinkin'.
Remember that the mechanics stethoscope found that the sound was loudest just behind the clutch. It also has a somewhat *dry* sound, like unoiled metal dingjng.

Oil is delivered thru the mainshaft, alongside the clutch pushrod, and emanates into the groove in the spacer bushing to lubricate the basket bushing and end bearings.



If the clutch is reassembled with grease in that area, and the sound doesn't reappear, it may confirm a lubrication issue, or simply too much clearance.

I'm like a dog that won't let go of that bone, eh?
https://plus.google.com/u/0/share?u...ed&source=yt&hl=en&soc-platform=1&soc-app=130
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0u1-50t_E#action=share

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Another test to try, wiggling the basket against its torque springs.

Clamp the basket's protruding end in the bench vise, kinda like this pic, but without all the other clutch parts, basket only.


Then, grasp the basket and try to twist it against the torque springs. Note any movement and sounds...

 

[robinc]

I'm like a dog that won't let go of that bone, eh?

Haha, I can relate to that 2M, Describes me too. Although lately I've also been acting like his alter ego, 'chasing his tail'

Will look into things further this aft.

Another test.....love it!

Thanks man.

 

[robinc]

Ok got some updates.

Revised Clutch Washers/Spacing Measurements

Another little video of 3 baskets with your new test 2M.

My last measurement trying to hold a machinist's square and the needle bearing down when installed was pretty hard so I tried it again on a tempered glass plate. My endplay measurement in the chart above show .005" which is 2 thou less than my previous attempt.

Here is what I did today. Not in pic but held the needle bearing down with two fingers and one on the square so things couldn't move or lift.
.003" / .076mm feeler in there, moves pretty easy, .004" and .005" pretty tough so maybe this confirms that I'm close with that 0.06mm measurement.

The neighbour I borrowed the trailer from yesterday just popped in to see the results of my misadventures.

Saw my bike laying on her side and we got to chatting about it.
He is a retired mechanic, college teacher, etc. etc. He's rebuilt plenty of engines, some bike engines and just finished rebuilding an Austin Mini engine with his son. Was talking about some clutch issues they had so he started looking at all the washers and bits.

He noticed the wear on the spacer shaft side of the Second (Thick) Washer. You can 'almost' feel it and could measure it if you had the right equipment. Couple of pics.

He mentioned that they had a problem in the clutch assembly that looked so small you wouldn't think it would have mattered.

He suggested that even though this wear looks to be insignificant, by the time it gets to the outside of the clutch basket it has magnified almost exponentially. Said he'd try swapping washers 2 and 4 as they are the same size and put this wear facing out on washer 4.

Maybe can't hurt be still wouldn't solve the push/pull play in the basket. It's not worn that much.

So, here's what I've got for an update.
Nothings jumped out at me.

Thanks again 2M. Maybe this will help you see something I don't.

 

[5twins]

From your 3 basket comparison video, I'm going to hazard a guess and say they all do that? But that back and forth movement, as well as the same on the tach drive rod, shouldn't happen while the parts are being spun, thrust "forward" so to speak. I would think they'd be under constant forward spin pressure so couldn't bounce back and forth to create those clicking noises. How about the tach rod's up and down play in the case? If the shim washer on the bottom of it is missing, it can move up and down too much. That I could see happening while it's spinning.

 

[robinc]

Thanks 5 twins.
Yes, I would guess that as well.

Yes I guess you're right, when things are spinning there wouldn't be that noise.

Washer is there, I checked that wondering if it might be missing.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Yeah, nothing's jumping out at me, either. I'm turning loose of that bone.

All I've got left is oil delivery. Didn't you have the oilpump apart? Remember to put in the drive pin for the inner rotor?

During operation, the crankshaft's angular velocity isn't a constant. Due to interchanging inertia with the reciprocating parts (piston, etc.), the crank actually speeds/slows twice per revolution. So, things in the primary can indeed give/take clearances. The oil helps dampen that out.

Just for fun, here's the service bulletin on primary gear lash.

Your sound doesn't sound like primary gear lash problems.
Just another red herring...

 

[5twins]

You don't seem to be discovering anything radically amiss. Maybe this will turn out to just be one of your bike's little "quirks". By all means, try that different clutch hub, you never know.

I found 2M's primary gear post above interesting. I noted a different sound, sort of a whining, on mine after I swapped in a later dampened clutch hub. Seems it could be those gears fitting tighter now.

 

[robinc]

Yeah, nothing's jumping out at me, either. I'm turning loose of that bone.

Well, thanks for all your time and suggestions here 2M.

All I've got left is oil delivery. Didn't you have the oilpump apart? Remember to put in the drive pin for the inner rotor?

I took all the gears and drive apart and then stopped at totally taking oil pump apart. It's working and makes no noise so I thought I'd leave well enough alone. Yes, a little assembly lube on the pin and the woodruff key to hold them in place on reassembly.

I'll go through that bulletin and see if I can find a way to mount a dial indicator to test it since it's apart.

Just saw your last post 5twins as I was typing this.
I think I'm going to put it back together with the original basket with new clutch springs and sleeves to see if that helps or not.
I'll grease up the needle bearing as well.

I guess Lithium grease here? Or moly, or chassis grease?

If the noise comes back, it's not that big a job to swap in the other basket to see if that solves it.
Guess I'll kinda go through a process of elimination. Maybe stiffer springs will help.

Thank you so much again guys, and let me know if there's anything else you think I should do on reassembly.
Probably won't get back to this for a day or two.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...I guess Lithium grease here? Or moly, or chassis grease?

Regular ol' wheel bearing grease will suffice.
Doesn't have exotic chemicals.

Closely examine the gearteeth of the primary gears. A burr or imbedded speck in the basket's gear would swing by the crank's gear once in 2-2/3 crank revolutions, slower than the engine.

I s'pose you could roll the crank primary gear around the basket's gear, feel for imperfections...