ZACKLEY!! The tiny protrusion gives the nut something to bear against.
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On the road again at 40.............the bike that is
ZACKLEY!! The tiny protrusion gives the nut something to bear against.
Could a new bushing be pressed into the basket (are they available) 2M?
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Wow, thank you again 2M!
I will try to get back at this later today. Thank you again for you keen eye, observations and comments.
I will also check the starter gear assembly as 5twins suggested.
Found this pic. Will confirm again.
Huh, you're right, didn't catch that.
My apologies that I didn't get this done yesterday. Have read some of your posts on this 2M. I assume that I need to remove the primary gear #26 to do this?
Ok, well that's good.
Funny how tight it feels and yet the basket will still move around. Will do the basket spin test.
I will try to get back at this later today. Thank you again for you keen eye, observations and comments.
I will also check the starter gear assembly as 5twins suggested.
Had some time to have a look at a few more things.
All looks good here, Nothing bent, rivet is tight.
All looks good there.
I think? the bearing looks OK. I can move the race and balls within the bearing laterally, but not the bearing itself.
Forgot to get a pic of the clutch basket with the plates installed but I hope the pic I posted this morning shows the plates are inside the splines. I can get a measurement another time.
Did this and took some videos as best I could holding the phone with one hand and spinning the basket with the other.
First of all .032" is the largest gap gauge I have. Could start doubling up on feelers but there is more than 0.5mm clearance so I didn't bother.
I know it's hard to see with the phone movement but I do think there is some wobble/run-out here. I tried to line it up with a case brace somewhat for a reference point.
And there's a fair bit of wobble on the back of the clutch basket.
I cannot move the hub at all. It's solid, but I can move the clutch basket as yesterdays video showed. Here is a vid of me pushing and pulling on the basket. I don't know if the basket should move like this as I hadn't bothered to check that last time I was in there. I guess there was no reason to.
Edit: forgot this pic of the bushing. I think it looks pretty scored.
I know these videos taken by a one armed man are pretty tough to see clearly and hope they give you guys enough to go on.
I can get better ones tomorrow if necessary, will be able to have an extra pair of hands. If there is anything else I can do or provide to help with a diagnosis please let me know.
Also going to pick up a couple more clutch baskets tomorrow from buddy's spare engine in boxes to see if they are better or worse.
Let me know what you think guys, thanks again.
All looks good here, Nothing bent, rivet is tight.
All looks good there.
I think? the bearing looks OK. I can move the race and balls within the bearing laterally, but not the bearing itself.
Forgot to get a pic of the clutch basket with the plates installed but I hope the pic I posted this morning shows the plates are inside the splines. I can get a measurement another time.
Did this and took some videos as best I could holding the phone with one hand and spinning the basket with the other.
First of all .032" is the largest gap gauge I have. Could start doubling up on feelers but there is more than 0.5mm clearance so I didn't bother.
I know it's hard to see with the phone movement but I do think there is some wobble/run-out here. I tried to line it up with a case brace somewhat for a reference point.
And there's a fair bit of wobble on the back of the clutch basket.
I cannot move the hub at all. It's solid, but I can move the clutch basket as yesterdays video showed. Here is a vid of me pushing and pulling on the basket. I don't know if the basket should move like this as I hadn't bothered to check that last time I was in there. I guess there was no reason to.
Edit: forgot this pic of the bushing. I think it looks pretty scored.
I know these videos taken by a one armed man are pretty tough to see clearly and hope they give you guys enough to go on.
I can get better ones tomorrow if necessary, will be able to have an extra pair of hands. If there is anything else I can do or provide to help with a diagnosis please let me know.
Also going to pick up a couple more clutch baskets tomorrow from buddy's spare engine in boxes to see if they are better or worse.
Let me know what you think guys, thanks again.
Well you are certainly doing a good job of eliminating possibilities. I think that trying some spare clutch baskets is a super idea. Best of luck!
Yeah, I don't like all that in/out slop in the basket.
Yes, trying spare baskets should give you a better feel for the clearances.
While doing the basket spin test, aggressively push/pull and tilt it, see if it contacts anything. Especially that spot near the crank primary bearing.
Ideally, the basket's bushing ID should be no more than 0.002" more than the spacer's OD. And, the end spacing of the basket's ID plus the axial thrust bearing and it's 1mm washer should be 0.002" or less. A reference pic.
Measure the washers, spacer, and the basket's ID and width.
My notes:
************************************
447 Clutch spacing measurements:
First thin washer: ID 25.2mm, OD 30mm, Thickness = 1mm
Second thick washer: ID 25mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2mm
Spacer shaft: ID=0.979" OD=1.376" Width = 1.181"
Spacer shaft: ID = 24.9mm, OD = 34.95mm, Width = 30mm
Third thin washer: ID 35mm, OD 51mm, Thickness = 1mm
Thrust bearing: Thickness = 2mm
Fourth thick washer: ID 25mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2mm
Total clamped region = 1 + 2 + 30 + 2 == 35mm
Basket (Housing): ID=1.378" OD=2.045" Thickness=1.064"
0.002" between Spacer OD and Basket ID
************************************
Yes, trying spare baskets should give you a better feel for the clearances.
While doing the basket spin test, aggressively push/pull and tilt it, see if it contacts anything. Especially that spot near the crank primary bearing.
Ideally, the basket's bushing ID should be no more than 0.002" more than the spacer's OD. And, the end spacing of the basket's ID plus the axial thrust bearing and it's 1mm washer should be 0.002" or less. A reference pic.
Measure the washers, spacer, and the basket's ID and width.
My notes:
************************************
447 Clutch spacing measurements:
First thin washer: ID 25.2mm, OD 30mm, Thickness = 1mm
Second thick washer: ID 25mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2mm
Spacer shaft: ID=0.979" OD=1.376" Width = 1.181"
Spacer shaft: ID = 24.9mm, OD = 34.95mm, Width = 30mm
Third thin washer: ID 35mm, OD 51mm, Thickness = 1mm
Thrust bearing: Thickness = 2mm
Fourth thick washer: ID 25mm, OD 50mm, Thickness = 2mm
Total clamped region = 1 + 2 + 30 + 2 == 35mm
Basket (Housing): ID=1.378" OD=2.045" Thickness=1.064"
0.002" between Spacer OD and Basket ID
************************************
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More info on the fitment of the thick washers against the 30mm spacer:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/yamaha-xs650-experimental-clutch.47498/page-3#post-501235
I'm not aware of any replacement bushings for the basket. That would likely be a machining operation. I think I've seen suitable dimpled bushing materials on Grangers and McMaster-Carr.
If I wanted to do a "easy fix", I suppose that adding 1/2mm to that first thin washer would space the clutch outward sufficiently to clear stuff. Either add a 1/2 mm washer, or use a 1.5mm washer. If the sound disappears, then plan for a later proper fix...
http://www.xs650.com/threads/yamaha-xs650-experimental-clutch.47498/page-3#post-501235
I'm not aware of any replacement bushings for the basket. That would likely be a machining operation. I think I've seen suitable dimpled bushing materials on Grangers and McMaster-Carr.
If I wanted to do a "easy fix", I suppose that adding 1/2mm to that first thin washer would space the clutch outward sufficiently to clear stuff. Either add a 1/2 mm washer, or use a 1.5mm washer. If the sound disappears, then plan for a later proper fix...
Thanks again for all the info 2M. I will do sum further exploration and measurin' and compare my results with your data.
I came across the diagram you posted above in my searches and measured the spacer shaft width wondering if somehow that might be my fitment problem. Mine measured 30mm wide as well.
Will try to get back to it today. Man! I gotta get this thing back on the road!
I came across the diagram you posted above in my searches and measured the spacer shaft width wondering if somehow that might be my fitment problem. Mine measured 30mm wide as well.
Will try to get back to it today. Man! I gotta get this thing back on the road!
So, I woke up this morning in a cold sweat from a dream where I was ducking out of the way of flying clutch basket washers like Ninja flying stars. Whew………..
Picked up the clutch baskets from buddy. When I had a closer look back in my shop, one was missing the bronze bushing so someone had harvested that.
First checked this:
No contact or rubbing no matter how hard I tried. That's good, but how come the rub marks have increased since Nov. 2017? Dunno.
Got some comparative measuring done. Edit chart 06/17/2018
Not 100% sure what you mean by this 2M:
But I'm guessing: basket housing thickness+washer+needle bearing-spacer shaft width should be no more than .002". Like this?
It would appear things are pretty similar to 2M’s results, save the extra thou I have on the spacer OD and basket ID.
FWIW, buddy's basket measured .002” difference. and the brass bushing on his looks in way better shape with none of the scoring marks that are on mine.
As well my spacer shaft ID is about .005" sloppier.
I put the replacement basket in and did the basket spin test. Couldn't pick up any wobble or run-out when viewed from the front but this is something that I think is hard to pick up by the naked eye unless it is really bad.
Similar wobble to the second video in post #1064 when viewed from the rear, but not quite as much, maybe?
And I could push/pull it the same as the third video in that post.
Maybe that’s just the way these are and I just stumbled upon it?
I got tired of trying to judge all this by eye so went looking for a gooseneck adapter dial gauge holder like 5twins to do 2M’s run out tests. No joy, couldn't find one but I didn't spend a whole day going everywhere either.
Thought of a solution. I figured I'd use a long M6 bolt with a split bushing to try and mount my dial gauge as 2M did as I don't have a 6mm shaft of an early steering damper.
The ID of the split bushings I have were fine but unfortunately the OD were too small to fix the dial gauge firmly. Perhaps it is a moot point but I would have liked to check the run out. I may still yet and will if you guys think it's important to do so.
So once again I'm the chump who's stumped.
I feel like the unlucky critter in a 'whack a mole’ game that DOES get hit by the mallet.
I'm really tempted to just put everything back together and see what happens but I haven't changed anything so inevitably that annoying 'tick’ will be back and I'll be right back here again.
I dunno. Dude recently asked me if I was discouraged,
I said, “Well……. I guess I'm a little discouraged, but I'm not defeated. These are over 40 year old bikes, whatdaya expect?”
Not sure who I was trying to convince there.
In saying that though, I want to be riding this one and wrenching my other, but don’t want to do any damage either.
I want to find this gremlin as WER says and get rid of it.
I sure don’t know what’s causing this 'ticking' noise, and don’t have the experience to know what else to look for or check.
I figured it must be in the clutch assembly as it happens more so when the bike is leaned to the right.and hoped a replacement would solve it, but having 2 clutch baskets that I can push/pull like that kinda rules that out.
Any other ideas guys?
Or do I just put it back together and see what happens?
Picked up the clutch baskets from buddy. When I had a closer look back in my shop, one was missing the bronze bushing so someone had harvested that.
First checked this:
No contact or rubbing no matter how hard I tried. That's good, but how come the rub marks have increased since Nov. 2017? Dunno.
Got some comparative measuring done. Edit chart 06/17/2018
Not 100% sure what you mean by this 2M:
But I'm guessing: basket housing thickness+washer+needle bearing-spacer shaft width should be no more than .002". Like this?
It would appear things are pretty similar to 2M’s results, save the extra thou I have on the spacer OD and basket ID.
FWIW, buddy's basket measured .002” difference. and the brass bushing on his looks in way better shape with none of the scoring marks that are on mine.
As well my spacer shaft ID is about .005" sloppier.
I put the replacement basket in and did the basket spin test. Couldn't pick up any wobble or run-out when viewed from the front but this is something that I think is hard to pick up by the naked eye unless it is really bad.
Similar wobble to the second video in post #1064 when viewed from the rear, but not quite as much, maybe?
And I could push/pull it the same as the third video in that post.
Maybe that’s just the way these are and I just stumbled upon it?
I got tired of trying to judge all this by eye so went looking for a gooseneck adapter dial gauge holder like 5twins to do 2M’s run out tests. No joy, couldn't find one but I didn't spend a whole day going everywhere either.
Thought of a solution. I figured I'd use a long M6 bolt with a split bushing to try and mount my dial gauge as 2M did as I don't have a 6mm shaft of an early steering damper.
The ID of the split bushings I have were fine but unfortunately the OD were too small to fix the dial gauge firmly. Perhaps it is a moot point but I would have liked to check the run out. I may still yet and will if you guys think it's important to do so.
So once again I'm the chump who's stumped.
I feel like the unlucky critter in a 'whack a mole’ game that DOES get hit by the mallet.
I'm really tempted to just put everything back together and see what happens but I haven't changed anything so inevitably that annoying 'tick’ will be back and I'll be right back here again.
I dunno. Dude recently asked me if I was discouraged,
I said, “Well……. I guess I'm a little discouraged, but I'm not defeated. These are over 40 year old bikes, whatdaya expect?”
Not sure who I was trying to convince there.
In saying that though, I want to be riding this one and wrenching my other, but don’t want to do any damage either.
I want to find this gremlin as WER says and get rid of it.
I sure don’t know what’s causing this 'ticking' noise, and don’t have the experience to know what else to look for or check.
I figured it must be in the clutch assembly as it happens more so when the bike is leaned to the right.and hoped a replacement would solve it, but having 2 clutch baskets that I can push/pull like that kinda rules that out.
Any other ideas guys?
Or do I just put it back together and see what happens?
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Do you still have your friends basket bolted in there? Since you know that it has something to do with the clutch, I would be curious to see how it was with a completely different assembly in there. I don’t know if you had the whole set up, front to back , all the plates, everything, from Buddy. But if you did, and it costs you nothing to try it. I would be curious to see if anything changed, while running the engine with his assembly in place.
If you tried running it with an entirely different assembly in place and STILL had the ticking noise, then you’ve just knocked your original clutch assembly off of the suspect list.
My two cents.
If you tried running it with an entirely different assembly in place and STILL had the ticking noise, then you’ve just knocked your original clutch assembly off of the suspect list.
My two cents.
Agreed. That's the way I'd go Robin. At the least, swap the basket and bushing with whichever ones "feel" the tightest. Run it and see if the tic's still there. Judging from the video, you're not in any danger of grenading an engine.
Thanks for the suggestion Bob.
Right now nothings in there, everything's on the bench. Could easily reassemble with his basket but I didn't see enough differences between the two to think it would matter which basket was installed. I don't know.
His plates look pretty rough so I wouldn't use them especially as mine all spec out fine.
Maybe my new stiffer clutch springs would help? I don't know.
Right now nothings in there, everything's on the bench. Could easily reassemble with his basket but I didn't see enough differences between the two to think it would matter which basket was installed. I don't know.
His plates look pretty rough so I wouldn't use them especially as mine all spec out fine.
Maybe my new stiffer clutch springs would help? I don't know.
Ya, hoped I'd 'feel' a difference Jim, but no such luck. Both measure out pretty close with no discernible difference in fit or feel.
We dug around in the boxes hoping there was a spacer shaft in there as well, but unfortunately not. Just this one other usable basket that is really no better, so I dunno.
Excellent testing and reporting, Rob. Thanx for the detailed washer dims table, I downloaded that for my records. Good you caught my 30mm (should be 36mm) typo.
Agree with JimD54, try the basket swap. That'll also give you different basket springs and basket primary gear in the scenario.
Diagnosing and finding mysterious sounds and oil leaks top the madness list, and we're all learning from this one.
The big clues here are:
- Tipping to the right.
- Independant from the trans.
- Stethoscope points to some area behind the clutch, not crank bearing.
- A recent thing, started after other work was done.
Cogitating some more...
Edit: I still don't like that in/out play of the basket. Is there a new thrust bearing involved here? Might try packing it with grease to see if the sound changes, at least until the grease washes away...
Agree with JimD54, try the basket swap. That'll also give you different basket springs and basket primary gear in the scenario.
Diagnosing and finding mysterious sounds and oil leaks top the madness list, and we're all learning from this one.
The big clues here are:
- Tipping to the right.
- Independant from the trans.
- Stethoscope points to some area behind the clutch, not crank bearing.
- A recent thing, started after other work was done.
Cogitating some more...
Edit: I still don't like that in/out play of the basket. Is there a new thrust bearing involved here? Might try packing it with grease to see if the sound changes, at least until the grease washes away...
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OK, thanks 2M.
I'll put in the other basket. I had bought stiffer CSK14 springs and Mikes clutch spring screw/sleeve set last fall but they didn't arrive in time when it was apart then for the starter gear fix. I'll put them in now.
Yes new Mikes needle/thrust bearing was installed last fall. Will give it a try with some grease.
Thanks again for your info and tips.
I'll put in the other basket. I had bought stiffer CSK14 springs and Mikes clutch spring screw/sleeve set last fall but they didn't arrive in time when it was apart then for the starter gear fix. I'll put them in now.
Yes new Mikes needle/thrust bearing was installed last fall. Will give it a try with some grease.
Thanks again for your info and tips.
Ok, Rob, I think I'm getting a clearer perception on this thing.
Reviewing your previous posts/pics:
Yup, that should be nearly flush. You want about 0.002" there.
Now, the hub seating depth.
That hub *does* look to be seating a bit too far out.
Compare with Mailman's hub/spline pic.
Suppose that the inner spacer sleeve/bushing was 31mm wide, instead of 30mm wide. That would produce the images here. Plus:
- It would allow the basket to skitter in/out, possibly causing your 'tick' sound.
- It would allow the basket's inner bushing to wear tapered, allowing contact at the crank primary gear area.
- It would have the hub, clutchpack, and pressure plate setting outboard too far, possibly allowing the pressure plate to contact/scrape the inside of the right cover during clutch disengagement.
With all those washer, bearing, spacer bushing dimension posted earlier, something doesn't add up. Those dims should have the hub setting deeper, with very little basket in/out play. Maybe time to carefully remeasure all those, figure out why so much lateral clearance...
Reviewing your previous posts/pics:
Yup, that should be nearly flush. You want about 0.002" there.
Now, the hub seating depth.
That hub *does* look to be seating a bit too far out.
Compare with Mailman's hub/spline pic.
Suppose that the inner spacer sleeve/bushing was 31mm wide, instead of 30mm wide. That would produce the images here. Plus:
- It would allow the basket to skitter in/out, possibly causing your 'tick' sound.
- It would allow the basket's inner bushing to wear tapered, allowing contact at the crank primary gear area.
- It would have the hub, clutchpack, and pressure plate setting outboard too far, possibly allowing the pressure plate to contact/scrape the inside of the right cover during clutch disengagement.
With all those washer, bearing, spacer bushing dimension posted earlier, something doesn't add up. Those dims should have the hub setting deeper, with very little basket in/out play. Maybe time to carefully remeasure all those, figure out why so much lateral clearance...
Ok, thanks 2M, Just got in from the CVMG rally in Paris, Ontario. back in the shop, checking everything through again.
Ok, everything measures as reported and as it should be 2M. Spacer shaft is in fact 30mm, but does look to be too long in the assembly.
Therefore I think it can only be one other thing.
Now, here's a crazy thought. If the washers and spacer shaft are correct and there is still that additional gap, could the main drive axle and bearing have been shifted 1mm or so to the right when the new seal was driven in on the left side of the case? This would do it if that were possible.
EDIT: Or rather the bearing got pushed to the right and/or the main drive axle got pulled to the left when re torqued.
Therefore I think it can only be one other thing.
Now, here's a crazy thought. If the washers and spacer shaft are correct and there is still that additional gap, could the main drive axle and bearing have been shifted 1mm or so to the right when the new seal was driven in on the left side of the case? This would do it if that were possible.
EDIT: Or rather the bearing got pushed to the right and/or the main drive axle got pulled to the left when re torqued.
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Apologies 2M that was my error in that picture. Don't think I had the spacer shaft fully seated as it now looks better with the new basket installed. I had also flipped the bearing over in that picture which made it look worse than it actually was. Thickness is the same either way I guess but this new picture is the way it was installed.
New pic of hub.
Hard to measure with a digital caliper but I'm getting over 2mm's in depth there.
I can still, push/pull and rock the basket.
New pic of hub.
Hard to measure with a digital caliper but I'm getting over 2mm's in depth there.
I can still, push/pull and rock the basket.
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Also measured this........
Need more hands, kinda hard to hold the machinists square on the spacer shaft and hold the bearing in place while slipping in the feeler in.
I don't like this old rusted out set but the tips are OK and they are the only narrow set that I have.
.006" goes pretty easy, .008" is a no go so I'm guessing it's around .007" which is certainly more than the recommended .002"
Not sure what this shows, but hopefully what you were referring to 2M.
Thanks again for slugging through all this with me.
Need more hands, kinda hard to hold the machinists square on the spacer shaft and hold the bearing in place while slipping in the feeler in.
I don't like this old rusted out set but the tips are OK and they are the only narrow set that I have.
.006" goes pretty easy, .008" is a no go so I'm guessing it's around .007" which is certainly more than the recommended .002"
Not sure what this shows, but hopefully what you were referring to 2M.
Thanks again for slugging through all this with me.
