Maybe the shift drum is off slightly. Allowing one of the dogs to tic against the gear next to it when leaned?
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On the road again at 40.............the bike that is
You using a stock clutch worm actuator or one with more throw? More throw would push the pressure plate further out....
Ok guys, gonna start on a reply and update. Will do a photo essay so to speak with questions answered and comments by me along the way.
It is going to take awhile as I'm waiting for some videos to upload so that I can post them. Hopefully I won't run out on the timer and lose all this.
I remember Jim and I found out in the past that an unposted comment will eventually disappear but don't know how long we've got before that happens.
Hang on, a bunch of stuff coming and it may take more than 1 post. Maybe I'll do Skulls trick and create a couple of place holders. Can always go back and delete them if not required I guess.
pics to follow.
Everything's stock Jim except for the needle bearing.
It is going to take awhile as I'm waiting for some videos to upload so that I can post them. Hopefully I won't run out on the timer and lose all this.
I remember Jim and I found out in the past that an unposted comment will eventually disappear but don't know how long we've got before that happens.
Hang on, a bunch of stuff coming and it may take more than 1 post. Maybe I'll do Skulls trick and create a couple of place holders. Can always go back and delete them if not required I guess.
pics to follow.Everything's stock Jim except for the needle bearing.
Don't see any signs of anything rubbing here.
I cannot move the mainshaft as it's shown here but do get some movement if I reassemble everything without all the plates. Video to follow.
Haven't got to your other tests yet 2M, but here are some more pics in case.....ahem....you guys catch anything.
Bike is in neutral.
More to follow.......
Ok, pie hole stuffed with some BBQ ribs, time to get back to work.
CHAPTER 2.
Maybe all these pics are redundant after you guys see the upcoming video but I figured I'd post them anyways.
If nothing else they add more fodder to the forum and may prove helpful to someone else in the future.
These are a series of pics of my reassembly sequence.
I think I posted this one already but here's where we start.
1mm washer, 2 mm washer, spacer shaft.
Bit of a sidetrack on the next one but I have read of others filing these plate grooves off the basket. Recommended? Yes or No?
1mm washer, 2mm needle bearing, 2mm washer.
Now a step back. You can see that the inner edge of the 45° bevel on the spacer shaft is sitting proud of the needle bearing. Is this normal or should these be flush?
Clutch boss installed and it's sitting proud of the splined shaft by 2mm's. Should it be so?
Maybe that's the way it should be but I just think they should be flush? Dunno.
Here's a pic if I remove the 2mm washer that is supposed to be there. Now it's flush.
2.6mm washer, conical spring, nut.
Just snugged up, not fully torqued.
Three more pics I forgot to add to my previous post showing basket gear and crank's primary gear alignment. Pretty hard to get in there to get a pic.
Dunno if these should line up or not? 2M did say no overhanging of gear teeth.
So, maybe all this is according to Hoyle, maybe not. I have noted where I think that things aren't lining up but I don't have a clue. First time I've ever looked this close in here.
And now for the long awaited video. Sure wish buddy had been available today to hold my phone/camera steady. Pretty tough to hold the phone steady while trying to capture this movement.
I can move the hub in and out along the mainshaft, but takes two hands to do that, and couldn't hold the camera steady with my knees....lol.
Was able to capture a couple of videos of me rocking the hub with one hand while trying to hold the phone steady with the other. Some inevitable movement of the phone, but I think you can see how the hub is moving as well.
2M said: Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
Well, it definitely moves and makes a noise when doing so.
So, here's my findings guys. Things don't look right to me, but I don't know what they should look like.
I'm still thinking my tick, tick noise is coming from this issue. Also something isn't right in here as the pressure plate has been rubbing on the case cover again.
I hope all of this hasn't been redundant and that it may help you guys diagnose what's going on here.
I am at a total loss. Again I appreciate all your comments, suggestions and help and hope that somehow we can get to the bottom of this one.
CHAPTER 2.
Maybe all these pics are redundant after you guys see the upcoming video but I figured I'd post them anyways.
If nothing else they add more fodder to the forum and may prove helpful to someone else in the future.
These are a series of pics of my reassembly sequence.
I think I posted this one already but here's where we start.
1mm washer, 2 mm washer, spacer shaft.
Bit of a sidetrack on the next one but I have read of others filing these plate grooves off the basket. Recommended? Yes or No?
1mm washer, 2mm needle bearing, 2mm washer.
Now a step back. You can see that the inner edge of the 45° bevel on the spacer shaft is sitting proud of the needle bearing. Is this normal or should these be flush?
Clutch boss installed and it's sitting proud of the splined shaft by 2mm's. Should it be so?
Maybe that's the way it should be but I just think they should be flush? Dunno.
Here's a pic if I remove the 2mm washer that is supposed to be there. Now it's flush.
2.6mm washer, conical spring, nut.
Just snugged up, not fully torqued.
Three more pics I forgot to add to my previous post showing basket gear and crank's primary gear alignment. Pretty hard to get in there to get a pic.
Dunno if these should line up or not? 2M did say no overhanging of gear teeth.
So, maybe all this is according to Hoyle, maybe not. I have noted where I think that things aren't lining up but I don't have a clue. First time I've ever looked this close in here.
And now for the long awaited video. Sure wish buddy had been available today to hold my phone/camera steady. Pretty tough to hold the phone steady while trying to capture this movement.
I can move the hub in and out along the mainshaft, but takes two hands to do that, and couldn't hold the camera steady with my knees....lol.
Was able to capture a couple of videos of me rocking the hub with one hand while trying to hold the phone steady with the other. Some inevitable movement of the phone, but I think you can see how the hub is moving as well.
2M said: Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
Well, it definitely moves and makes a noise when doing so.
So, here's my findings guys. Things don't look right to me, but I don't know what they should look like.
I'm still thinking my tick, tick noise is coming from this issue. Also something isn't right in here as the pressure plate has been rubbing on the case cover again.
I hope all of this hasn't been redundant and that it may help you guys diagnose what's going on here.
I am at a total loss. Again I appreciate all your comments, suggestions and help and hope that somehow we can get to the bottom of this one.
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Ok guys, finished up the edit on one of my place holders. Deleted the others.
Here is all I've got. I really don't have a clue as to what's going on here but hope I have provided enough info that one of your experienced eyes may have seen this before and have an answer. If any other pics or measurements of something specific are required, let me know.
I'm going to stop guessing because at this point I don't like where those guesses are going.
Thanks guys.
Here is all I've got. I really don't have a clue as to what's going on here but hope I have provided enough info that one of your experienced eyes may have seen this before and have an answer. If any other pics or measurements of something specific are required, let me know.
I'm going to stop guessing because at this point I don't like where those guesses are going.
Thanks guys.
The inner hub should be proud of the splines. If it's not, the nut and washer will just tighten against the shaft splines and the hub will be loose
Thanks Jim, ya that makes sense.
As you know I'm just flailing away in the dark here and noting my observations. I sure wish I knew more, but I guess I'll learn.
Interesting you say that though as the hub is in fact loose when everything is installed properly.
I'm thinking that this movement is what 2M was referring to when he said: Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
I must be missing something here but can't see how it is doing that.
As you know I'm just flailing away in the dark here and noting my observations. I sure wish I knew more, but I guess I'll learn.
Interesting you say that though as the hub is in fact loose when everything is installed properly.
I'm thinking that this movement is what 2M was referring to when he said: Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
I must be missing something here but can't see how it is doing that.
The play in the video looks like it's the outer basket that's moving and not the inner hub.... correct?
Yes, that's right Jim. The inner hub is tight.
Robin I found a photo of my clutch going back together, it looked exactly like yours.
Thanks Bob!
One of my questions answered by both you and Jim.
Thanks for posting the pic buddy!
One of my questions answered by both you and Jim.
Thanks for posting the pic buddy!
Ok... so the play is coming from the brass bushing...either play between the bushing and basket and/or the bushing and tranny shaft. Along with that, it looks to me like the stack with the throw-out bearing in the middle should be as close to flush as you can get. Looks to me like the throw-out bearing is just floating.... that make sense?
I'm far from an XS expert... so I can't really say if that play's excessive.. or not.
I'm far from an XS expert... so I can't really say if that play's excessive.. or not.
Something else I was thinking about. The clutch hub and the gear it mounts to have to, by design, move independently of each other, so that the hub springs can compress to absorb the shock when putting it in gear.
These photos are from a post about replacing clutch hub springs.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/clutch-hub-cushion-spring-rebuild-w-pics.40984/#post-410775
My point is, I’ve never tried to wiggle the hub basket. Is play natural due to the fact they are not tightly joined together? Could your gear/ basket assembly have developed some excess play? Just some things to ponder.
These photos are from a post about replacing clutch hub springs.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/clutch-hub-cushion-spring-rebuild-w-pics.40984/#post-410775
My point is, I’ve never tried to wiggle the hub basket. Is play natural due to the fact they are not tightly joined together? Could your gear/ basket assembly have developed some excess play? Just some things to ponder.
Excellent point Bob. I didn't think of that.
I'm not convinced yet that what we're sein' is excessive. We could be just chasin' our collective tails here....
Referencing post #1044, pics 1 & 2.
I've seen several pics in here of covers with that scrape arc. But, only on 447 engines, never on 256 engines. I'm suspecting that those scrape lines are from some past history of improperly installed pressure plates, due to the unique indexing of the 447 clutch, which would have the pressure plate setting far too proud of the hub, and touching the case.
A properly assembled 447 clutchpack should show exposed, protruding hub splines.
A properly fitted 447 pressure plate is aligned with the index mark, and setting into the hub, its splines overlapping the hub's splines by about 3mm, as shown by these wear Mark's on the hub splines.
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Referencing post #1044, pics 3 & 4.
You note scrape marks in pic #3.
Study this modified pic #4.
This may not be your problem, could be just another old history.
But, to be sure, need to do the "basket spin test", referenced earlier.
You note scrape marks in pic #3.
Study this modified pic #4.
This may not be your problem, could be just another old history.
But, to be sure, need to do the "basket spin test", referenced earlier.
Rob, what you're grabbing and wiggling is the basket, not the hub.
This test is easier if the basket isn't in the way.
Grab the hub, try to move it up/down and in/out.
That tests the mainshaft's double-row bearing.
The basket's wiggling doesn't look good.
That's tested with the "basket spin test".
It, too, should demonstrate virtually zero slop and runout...
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The primaries gear mesh looks ok, they're aligned.
Just a quick test to ensure correct washer assembly.
Just a quick test to ensure correct washer assembly.
Right now, I'm going with a worn basket bushing.
It can not only let the basket bounce around, but the mesh depth of the primaries can change, making sounds...
It can not only let the basket bounce around, but the mesh depth of the primaries can change, making sounds...
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