Happy 1000th post Robin! I wish you many more!
Good luck with your tests.
Good luck with your tests.
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On the road again at 40.............the bike that is
Thanks Bob. Over at Donster's spinnin' some wrenches on his 80SG.
Will let you know what I find when I get back to Ol' Blue.
Will let you know what I find when I get back to Ol' Blue.
Ok, got some tests done 2M.
1. This one was interesting and we noticed it as we were just leaning the bike over prior to revving.
The noise appeared and got louder when tipping right, no noise tipping left.
2. When doing the rev thing, same results. Revs drop, louder on right lean, no noise on left lean.
3. Pull in the clutch lever, do the rev thing, noise is louder on the right as revs drop, no noise on the left lean.
4. Put in 1st and then 2nd. Clutch disengaged, do the rev thing, noise is there as revs drop. Seemed louder in 1st than in 2nd though.
Sumthin’ has been niggling at the foggy recesses of my memory. So I blew the dust off, and turned back the aged, yellowed, brittle pages in this old tome to days long past, when my starter gear was repaired and the clutch was apart...........
Found buried therein these scratchings…….
2) One of my clutch cush springs will rotate and a second will move slightly. I have read a comment by 5twins that this is a pretty involved and expensive job. I can see that as I guess you'd have to drill out the factory rivets and then replace with the special bolts and springs that come in the Mikes kit. First of all I don't relish the idea of this job and also don't like the idea of having nuts and bolts parts that could potentially come apart in place of rivets.
Even with Loctite 262. My machinist has a fully equipped shop and could maybe press new rivets in?
I decided to just reinstall it and run with it. I’m wondering now if when the bike is tipped to the right, those loose cush springs are trapped or making contact and rattling around in the primary gear, and when tipped left they are falling free(r) and therefore no noise?
This is total speculation on my part, but there sure is something rattlin’ around in there.
1. This one was interesting and we noticed it as we were just leaning the bike over prior to revving.
The noise appeared and got louder when tipping right, no noise tipping left.
2. When doing the rev thing, same results. Revs drop, louder on right lean, no noise on left lean.
3. Pull in the clutch lever, do the rev thing, noise is louder on the right as revs drop, no noise on the left lean.
4. Put in 1st and then 2nd. Clutch disengaged, do the rev thing, noise is there as revs drop. Seemed louder in 1st than in 2nd though.
Sumthin’ has been niggling at the foggy recesses of my memory. So I blew the dust off, and turned back the aged, yellowed, brittle pages in this old tome to days long past, when my starter gear was repaired and the clutch was apart...........
Found buried therein these scratchings…….
2) One of my clutch cush springs will rotate and a second will move slightly. I have read a comment by 5twins that this is a pretty involved and expensive job. I can see that as I guess you'd have to drill out the factory rivets and then replace with the special bolts and springs that come in the Mikes kit. First of all I don't relish the idea of this job and also don't like the idea of having nuts and bolts parts that could potentially come apart in place of rivets.
Even with Loctite 262. My machinist has a fully equipped shop and could maybe press new rivets in?
I decided to just reinstall it and run with it. I’m wondering now if when the bike is tipped to the right, those loose cush springs are trapped or making contact and rattling around in the primary gear, and when tipped left they are falling free(r) and therefore no noise?
This is total speculation on my part, but there sure is something rattlin’ around in there.
Ok, Rob, made a similar right side sounds vid of mine for comparisons.
The fact that the sounds change with the leaning right means that right cover has to come off. Check the in/out play of the shiftshaft and kickstart shaft. Double check clutch and starting gear assemblies. Look for scrape marks, like behind where the clutch basket gear meets engine primary gear, and inside surfaces of the clutch cover.
I'm in town running errands today, won't be back online 'till later...
The fact that the sounds change with the leaning right means that right cover has to come off. Check the in/out play of the shiftshaft and kickstart shaft. Double check clutch and starting gear assemblies. Look for scrape marks, like behind where the clutch basket gear meets engine primary gear, and inside surfaces of the clutch cover.
I'm in town running errands today, won't be back online 'till later...
Wow, thank you for taking the time to do that 2M. I really appreciate all your help.
Ya that sounds good and the way mine used to.
Buddy is out of town for a day or two so I'll wait for his return to help me tip her over. Could drain the oil and do it alone but I know he doesn't want to miss out on all the fun. Plus there is only about 40-50 miles on that oil! Kidding really, the cost of 2500 CC's of oil is the least of my concerns right now.
On its side is a nice position to work on it as well though.
Might get to it Sunday, if not will do it on a free day next week. Will post findings then.
Thank you again for everything my friend.
Ya that sounds good and the way mine used to.
Buddy is out of town for a day or two so I'll wait for his return to help me tip her over. Could drain the oil and do it alone but I know he doesn't want to miss out on all the fun. Plus there is only about 40-50 miles on that oil! Kidding really, the cost of 2500 CC's of oil is the least of my concerns right now.
On its side is a nice position to work on it as well though.
Might get to it Sunday, if not will do it on a free day next week. Will post findings then.
Thank you again for everything my friend.
I think 3 of the 6 springs on the back of the clutch hub may be a little looser than the other 3. I think the 6 springs take up the drive shocks progressively. 3 start out tight and once they compress a little, the other 3 looser ones (now getting tight) join in or come into play. I think the springs are all the same, 3 of the slots they fit into may differ in length a little from the other 3.
Huh, Ok, Thanks for the info 5twins.
We'll see what we see when we get back in there.
Not sure if there is a way to measure those slots with the springs in them, but I'll have a look at that when I'm in there.
If so, it will be interesting to see how the slot lengths differ.
I will report my findings.
Thanks again!
We'll see what we see when we get back in there.
Not sure if there is a way to measure those slots with the springs in them, but I'll have a look at that when I'm in there.
If so, it will be interesting to see how the slot lengths differ.
I will report my findings.
Thanks again!
Here's the ref thread.
WER's pics are still good.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/clutch-hub-cushion-spring-rebuild-w-pics.40984/
WER's pics are still good.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/clutch-hub-cushion-spring-rebuild-w-pics.40984/
Ok guys, not mine. Pat D. was the author. I just fixed it so you wouldn't have to click links for visuals.
Myself I find easier/cheaper to get another clutch. It is a damn good tutorial if that is the way you are going.
Myself I find easier/cheaper to get another clutch. It is a damn good tutorial if that is the way you are going.
Man, I was hoping to stop the bleeding on this one for awhile……….
My buddy and frequent visitor the local postman, who also likes to spin a wrench, dropped into the shop to chat about my bikes, his convertible Stang’, and drop off a parcel.
Haha, Daddy got new pipes!
You guys might remember this holed pipe.
An ad popped up on Kijiji last week from a Bike Salvage guy in Aberdeen, Saskatchewan.
About 18 minutes away from Fredintoon.
The vendor said you won’t find another set this good on the planet, (a little salesmanship), but, without going to Arizona that may well be true.
Asked for more pics to make sure, and he gladly sent them, so what’s a fella to do?
I had no choice!
They weren’t cheap, but by the time I bought Commandos, reducers, brackets, tax, would have have paid pretty much the same anyways. And these are originals!
I will miss the extra volume and throaty rumble from that holed pipe though.
My buddy and frequent visitor the local postman, who also likes to spin a wrench, dropped into the shop to chat about my bikes, his convertible Stang’, and drop off a parcel.
Haha, Daddy got new pipes!
You guys might remember this holed pipe.
An ad popped up on Kijiji last week from a Bike Salvage guy in Aberdeen, Saskatchewan.
About 18 minutes away from Fredintoon.
The vendor said you won’t find another set this good on the planet, (a little salesmanship), but, without going to Arizona that may well be true.
Asked for more pics to make sure, and he gladly sent them, so what’s a fella to do?
I had no choice!
They weren’t cheap, but by the time I bought Commandos, reducers, brackets, tax, would have have paid pretty much the same anyways. And these are originals!
I will miss the extra volume and throaty rumble from that holed pipe though.
HoooWee! Those pipes are beautiful, they look like NOS! You earned that exhaust after all your hard work on your motor! Can’t wait to see them on!
Excellent !!
Thanks Bob. Me too!
Hahaha. Thanks Dude!
Now THEY looks danged nice Robin - congrats on a heck of a find!
Thanks Pete, Ya I doubt I'll ever come across another set like this, but one can always hope. Black Betty needs new pipes too!
Thanks rsor!
He says he has lots of XS650 parts. I have him on speed dial.
He says he has lots of XS650 parts. I have him on speed dial.
Well, here we are……. Again!
I’m sure hoping this ain’t her favorite position!
Got everything apart today. All washers were properly located, unfortunately. I was hoping I had messed up and put two, 2mm’s together in error. Would have been too easy eh?
No broken cush springs.
I 'think' I may know what the problem is but I have no clue as to how to verify or correct it.
Sure wish you had that Time Machine up and running 2M. I'm going back to 1990 here and I have trouble remembering yesterday.
I think I had mentioned in the past that when I got this bike in 1990 the PO had dropped it 3 or 4 times and figured he'd better quit while he was still alive.
This last time resulted in a missing shift lever. Missing because the shift shaft was sheared off flush with the left case. That would have taken some skill, as there were crash bars on the bike. Also a broken clutch cable and a few other things that I just can't recall.
I needed a Ministry of Transport Safety Inspection done so that I could get it licensed. So I took it to a local mechanic to have him do the safety and replace the broken shift shaft while it was there.
When I picked the bike up, the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. I can recall an interesting trip home that day.
Once again the details totally escape me as to how, but somehow I figured out the shift shaft wasn't seated properly. Maybe I checked my manuals. maybe I heard a noise, maybe I felt something, but I figured I may as well give it a go. I pulled the right case cover and saw this.
Somehow back then I must have popped the shift shaft and stuff back into place (or there abouts) and it was fine for 18 years of riding.
Now we fast forward to 2018.
Here's what the inside of the right case looks like now.
You can see the rub marks have gotten bigger so the clutch basket is making contact again.
Here is a pic again from last November showing those earlier rub marks.
And one from today showing how they've increased.....
Also can see in this pic where it'd been rubbing.
I don't know about all this stuff but I wonder if the shift shaft somehow again isn't fully seated therefore the clutch basket is sitting a bit proud and is making contact with the cover? Hence my tick, click.
I don't know how much clearance there should be here but I got a 20 thou feeler to fit. Held the basket tight. If I went to .021” I could feel the basket move out a bit.
Maybe I should put things together with the nut to absolutely confirm the gap here?
Does this make sense guys?
Obviously, it's rubbing on the case again as the rub marks have gotten worse.
Are there any tests or measurements that I can take to ascertain if this is in fact the issue. How can I tell if the shift shaft is properly seated?
Secondly, how do I fix it if it isn't?
Thirdly, if this isn't it, what the heck should I be looking for?
My apologies for running you guys around in circles, but all this historical stuff just came back to me as I got in there once again.
Hopefully this will once again be true.
Thanks again guys!
I’m sure hoping this ain’t her favorite position!
Got everything apart today. All washers were properly located, unfortunately. I was hoping I had messed up and put two, 2mm’s together in error. Would have been too easy eh?
No broken cush springs.
I 'think' I may know what the problem is but I have no clue as to how to verify or correct it.
Sure wish you had that Time Machine up and running 2M. I'm going back to 1990 here and I have trouble remembering yesterday.
I think I had mentioned in the past that when I got this bike in 1990 the PO had dropped it 3 or 4 times and figured he'd better quit while he was still alive.
This last time resulted in a missing shift lever. Missing because the shift shaft was sheared off flush with the left case. That would have taken some skill, as there were crash bars on the bike. Also a broken clutch cable and a few other things that I just can't recall.
I needed a Ministry of Transport Safety Inspection done so that I could get it licensed. So I took it to a local mechanic to have him do the safety and replace the broken shift shaft while it was there.
When I picked the bike up, the clutch wouldn't fully disengage. I can recall an interesting trip home that day.
Once again the details totally escape me as to how, but somehow I figured out the shift shaft wasn't seated properly. Maybe I checked my manuals. maybe I heard a noise, maybe I felt something, but I figured I may as well give it a go. I pulled the right case cover and saw this.
Somehow back then I must have popped the shift shaft and stuff back into place (or there abouts) and it was fine for 18 years of riding.
Now we fast forward to 2018.
Here's what the inside of the right case looks like now.
You can see the rub marks have gotten bigger so the clutch basket is making contact again.
Here is a pic again from last November showing those earlier rub marks.
And one from today showing how they've increased.....
Also can see in this pic where it'd been rubbing.
I don't know about all this stuff but I wonder if the shift shaft somehow again isn't fully seated therefore the clutch basket is sitting a bit proud and is making contact with the cover? Hence my tick, click.
I don't know how much clearance there should be here but I got a 20 thou feeler to fit. Held the basket tight. If I went to .021” I could feel the basket move out a bit.
Maybe I should put things together with the nut to absolutely confirm the gap here?
Does this make sense guys?
Obviously, it's rubbing on the case again as the rub marks have gotten worse.
Are there any tests or measurements that I can take to ascertain if this is in fact the issue. How can I tell if the shift shaft is properly seated?
Secondly, how do I fix it if it isn't?
Thirdly, if this isn't it, what the heck should I be looking for?
My apologies for running you guys around in circles, but all this historical stuff just came back to me as I got in there once again.
Hopefully this will once again be true.
Thanks again guys!
Last edited:
Real thinker there, Rob.
Transporter's still down, dangit.
Measure the radius of those scrub marks in the cover, from the protruding nub, it should be the center. Compare that radius with the pressure plate, see if it aligns with the springs screws, or something else. The only time when the pressure plate gets close to the cover is when it's displaced outward, during disengagement. Your tic sound occurs anyways.
Where you're showing the 0.020" feeler gauge, check for scrape marks there on the case, and on the backside of the basket gear. Proper setup there is to have 100% mesh of the basket gear with the crank's primary gear, no overhanging of gear teeth.
Just an FYI, the smaller thin washer that goes on first, against the mainshaft bearing, behind the clutch, is the same p/n spacing washer that goes on the kickstart shaft, often lost because it sticks to the kickstart bushing in the cover.
The shiftshaft's long dangly arm, and its claw arm, could be bent. They're easily straightened. Not much room for that thing in there. Closely examine the shift arms and the backside of the clutch basket for ding marks. More info in signal's thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/gear-selector-trouble.51071/
The starter gears and such aren't my area of experience, but should be checked for clearances with the clutch basket.
See if the mainshaft's double-row bearing, behind the clutch, looks damaged, or has any lateral play. Since its inner race is clamped between the mainshaft's 1st gear and the clutch hub, reassemble the clutch minus the basket and plates. Just the washers, spacer, and hub. Just snug the hubnut. Then, by hand, try to force the hub in/out of the engine. Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
Do the "basket spin test", found in Paul's thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/engine-noise-on-deceleration.47709/
That's all I got right now...
Transporter's still down, dangit.
Measure the radius of those scrub marks in the cover, from the protruding nub, it should be the center. Compare that radius with the pressure plate, see if it aligns with the springs screws, or something else. The only time when the pressure plate gets close to the cover is when it's displaced outward, during disengagement. Your tic sound occurs anyways.
Where you're showing the 0.020" feeler gauge, check for scrape marks there on the case, and on the backside of the basket gear. Proper setup there is to have 100% mesh of the basket gear with the crank's primary gear, no overhanging of gear teeth.
Just an FYI, the smaller thin washer that goes on first, against the mainshaft bearing, behind the clutch, is the same p/n spacing washer that goes on the kickstart shaft, often lost because it sticks to the kickstart bushing in the cover.
The shiftshaft's long dangly arm, and its claw arm, could be bent. They're easily straightened. Not much room for that thing in there. Closely examine the shift arms and the backside of the clutch basket for ding marks. More info in signal's thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/gear-selector-trouble.51071/
The starter gears and such aren't my area of experience, but should be checked for clearances with the clutch basket.
See if the mainshaft's double-row bearing, behind the clutch, looks damaged, or has any lateral play. Since its inner race is clamped between the mainshaft's 1st gear and the clutch hub, reassemble the clutch minus the basket and plates. Just the washers, spacer, and hub. Just snug the hubnut. Then, by hand, try to force the hub in/out of the engine. Should have zero movement, and no sounds.
Do the "basket spin test", found in Paul's thread:
http://www.xs650.com/threads/engine-noise-on-deceleration.47709/
That's all I got right now...
