An Adventure in Firsts: '83 XS650 Heritage Special Build/Rebuild

[650Skull]

Here is my

Using the electric start first time in the morning. On my 83 Heritage Special, I would wind it over and count 6 turns, (as you know the bike will start easy with the E start if the bike has been running or started at least once ), . then stop if it didn't start............Turn the key off. .........turning the key off for 2 reasons.....

1st; this will turn the headlight off, (headlight will come on when you finish trying to start the motor whether the engine starts or not).........

Also turning the the key off stops the headlight and the ignition system from draining the battery. A key left on drains the battery

2nd; and this is why i don't over wind the engine each time.... running it more than 6 times the battery will start to get drained........By stopping early and turning the key off, and the headlight, it gives the battery a chance to get what they call a surface charge............this is a small amount of charge that is generated when the engine gets turned over but not over used.........If you wait 30 seconds or so then try with the E start again the battery has regained that little bit of extra charge to use up. This is only good for the irst or maybe the second time

Another thing i used to do especially on cold mornings was to sit the bike in the sun out of the cold wind for 20min, or as long as i could, before needing to use it. made starting a lot easier. Surprising how much difference this makes, even if the outside temperature isn't that cold

On the compression test...........i would do it.........If you want to understand how things relate to each other a test could help you. Some have run engines on 100psi as long as both cylinders are at the same, or about 5 to 7 lbs difference. the lowest no less than 100psi.

If the test shows 135, + or - 5-7lbs, (or any where between 120 and 150 is fine), on each cylinder that is fine. 150psi is a good engine and is about what a new build should be.

If there is a big discrepancy between cylinders, 15 or more lbs then that will indicate a problem. If say one was 140 and the other 125 the bike will run but you know that it is going to need to have work done. could last a long time if the bike isn't thrashed and is ridden steady.
With a cylinder discrepancy of 10lbs or more you may find one plug will keep fouling and makes the engine run rough occasionally. Just need to clean the plug occasionally or change it out every so often........without knowing you have a cylinder discrepancy, you could be chasing a charging or carb problem.........

If the bike is an interim while the car is off the road or between cars then it should be ok.

The main reason to do the test, is already mentioned. If the compression is down or off then it could make the bike harder to start or tune. Knowing this will ease your mind and not go searching for problems that aren't there.

If the compression is down you may find the bike uses a bit of oil yet it wont be seen coming out of the exhausts. No need to go searching for other reasons that may not exist.

On setting the tappets/valves

If you have the factory tool kit i recommend using these tools to set the tappets. They are a specialty tool and the factory open end spanners are usually a good fit

Factory tappet tool

I also found a shifting spanner needs to be very good quality. Even good ones have play and if not used properly they can round off the nuts

 

[member28833]

If you have the factory tool kit i recommend using these tools to set the tappets. They are a specialty tool

Yes ! I want one of those.. never saw one before

 

[650Skull]

Some one was making them a while ago.........

 

[Jim]

Some one was making them a while ago.........

I made my own.... here.

 

[Jim]

Without goin' back through 16 pages... ... has anyone mentioned that you need an oil made for motorcycles? Most car oils have friction modifiers that will play hell with the wet clutch. You need one that states it's "for 4 stroke motorcycle" or "suitable for wet clutches".... 20-50 wt.

 

[Raymond]

FWIW, seems to me your priority is to change the oil, change the alternator brushes if you have the time, and ride the bike.

A compression test is a good way to assess the health of the engine. But if you don't intend to rebuild the engine anytime soon, the compression test can only 1) reassure you the compression is good or 2) worry you that it is a bit low. Your call, but you could leave it especially if you don't want more things to worry about right now.

Checking and adjusting the valves and adjusting the cam-chain tension are necessary tasks in the long term but your engine sounds good in those short vids. So you could leave all that until you have more time and more confidence in the bike & your own mechanical skills. These are robust engines.

When starting, you are having to use the starter eight long presses? (Not ideal) Have you tried using a little bit of throttle to 'catch' the engine? Try blipping the throttle, say 1/8 to 1/4, till it fires up? Different engines seem to 'prefer' slightly different procedures. Good advice from Skull #301 above.

Changing the oil you will need a good 27mm socket. Or ring spanner. And a tray to drain into, somewhere to dispose of the old oil, and at least 2 1/2 litres of new m/c engine oil. Few rags usually come in useful too. Have a look at the old oil - it will probably be black but should still have some 'oiliness' if you rub it between your finger tips. There might be a little bit of metal grit in the bottom of the drain tray but big chunks of metal is uhm not good news. Just kidding!

 

[MarieKaramazov]

if that bolt took the torque it's supposed to.... leave it alone!!

Yes it did, so, leave it be I shall!

any reliability issues are the priority

Exactly. Trust me, everyone, I'm in the ride it camp. But I'm also in the 'I can't afford to be stranded without a truck to get my bike back or $ for tow miles away camp'. That's why, to me, solving the dangerously low idle at stops is the priority because I don't want to get stranded. I've been keeping rides to 15-30 minutes as anymore seems to be asking for it till I solve it. It continued to drop the other day, to the point where I'm keeping the throttle on a bit at stops so the bike doesn't cut out at the light or stop signs. Any chance this is a clutch issue again? It's still low if it put it in neutral, but perhaps a touuuuch higher, and shifting has been fine.
Digging that hose over the adjustment screw @Jim . I've been carrying tiny Phillips in my pocket when I ride.
My other thought is the battery. As I've mentioned, I've been considering going to lithium as small and light (and strong) are my priorities. While I may delete the Estart down the line, I don't think that's in my near future considering I'm still in getting it to run reliably territory. Hoping to have time to look into that more tonight. If there are cheap (less than $50) non-acid batteries that someone knows about that I could snag as an interim battery while i figure out all that lithium switch over and whether it works with reg/reg, voltage/amps and whatever the heck else I need to figure out to know which to buy and what it means I need to do, let me know.

Side note, not sure if I'm just not used to it compared to my last bike, but the smell from the exhaust is real strong on this one. Nobody seems to think it was an issue it seems, but I need to get another set of hands over here to put that left muffler in more straight.

Are you using the choke for your cold starts?

Yup, I always start using choke. (And last week, even when I only stopped the bike for 5-10 minutes post 20+minute ride, it needed choke to run above 1.2, as if I had to start the whole process over again. If I backed it off, it wanted to die.) When starting it Tuesday, it started on second attempt and then died after one rev. few more tries to start (waiting, key off between), tried to rev died again. Next time, started, backfired, died. Then I increased choke more than usual (normally only needs about 1/2). Started first or second time. Idle 1.5ish for a bit then dropping to just above 1 with same amount of choke, which again, is more than it usually needs. Took about 10 minutes to be stable around 1.2k without choke (prior to that it'll just straight up die if I take off the choke or back off too much; which yes, would happen previously as the bike needs this at first, but it hasn't needed this much choke for this long or been so ready to die when I back it off even a bit after a fair amount of time).
Oh, as for presses/start attempts @Raymond, generally I let it turn 6+ times (will count now I read 650's post). The 8 meant I had to try, wait and try again 8 separate times before it would actually catch.

Draining the carburetor float bowls is a very easy and important task, to flush out debris in the bowl.

I'll look into how to do this

2nd; and this is why i don't over wind the engine each time.... running it more than 6 times the battery will start to get drained........By stopping early and turning the key off, and the headlight, it gives the battery a chance to get what they call a surface charge............this is a small amount of charge that is generated when the engine gets turned over but not over used.........If you wait 30 seconds or so then try with the E start again the battery has regained that little bit of extra charge to use up. This is only good for the irst or maybe the second time

Thanks for this. Good to understand.

If there is a big discrepancy between cylinders, 15 or more lbs then that will indicate a problem. If say one was 140 and the other 125 the bike will run but you know that it is going to need to have work done. could last a long time if the bike isn't thrashed and is ridden steady.
With a cylinder discrepancy of 10lbs or more you may find one plug will keep fouling and makes the engine run rough occasionally. Just need to clean the plug occasionally or change it out every so often........without knowing you have a cylinder discrepancy, you could be chasing a charging or carb problem.........

That's what I was thinking. Not the discrepancy in particular, but if the test indicates there's a bigger problem--particularly if it's one I don't have the facilities to handle myself (like removing the engine etc), I'd like to know now so I can get someone who can do it asap so I'm not without any transportation.

The car being gone isn't temporary. Not in the cards. Can't afford one, or the insurance. Putting all my chips on this bike. Using money from accident to get it right; after the 1k MAX (very ideally less) I have to repair/revive and modify it, throwing anymore than basic maintenance at it is going to leave me stranded until enough $ comes in.

TODAY'S PLAN
--Oil change. From my understanding right now, I just need to warm up engine, cut it, remove the two bolts underneath, drain. Remove filters (both?), soak them mineral spirits(?) till clean, put em back in (no drying or rinsing?), fill with new oil (yeah I know I need motorcycle specific oil, I wondered and looked it up way back, thanks Jim--hopefully it's okay the 10/30 oil I use for bolts/lubing is just motor oil, that's what manual said), torque bolts properly, the end.
--check brushes, replace if time/light allows and if needed
--check oil amount in cam covers (haven't run since Tuesday but I figure it'll still be there)
--pull spark plugs and check (figure if I am fouling on one side or something it'll show, which would advise a compression test)

After this, my priority is solving why the idle is dropping (and why starting seems so difficult) so I don't get stuck. More electrical inspection? reg/rec? As for valves and cam, it seems clear it's wise to do, but split as to whether this could be a cause. I'm going to look into what measuring and adjusting these things really involves and buy the tools (no I don' have factory kit). If it's not too crazy and something else more likely to the low idle/hard start shows, I'd rather just knock it out in next few days while I still have the car in case I run into more problems.

I'll try to upload more vids--ones when it wants to die or is having trouble starting--as well.

Gotta go, the light escapes!

 

[bosco659]

I made my own.... here.


View attachment 182211

Jim do you know the dimension of the square hole for the valve adjuster stem? Thx

 

[member28833]

Oil change. From my understanding right now, I just need to warm up engine, cut it, remove the two bolts underneath, drain. Remove filters (both?),

Careful way under there! Going after the sump plate / screen is a little awkward and can be troublesome. Those 6mm bolts (10mm heads) have potential to ruin your next task fun. Treat em with care. And the sump plate gasket, hope it isn't stuck, torn, needing replacement.

I'd drain the engine and inspect the plugs for metal debris and or black rubber slivers. Since you are under pressure for time and cost. You may decide to only clean the side filter "at this time only"
And about the carbureation concerns...
Drain the Carbs!
Water and or debris do collect in the bottom of the float bowls. Before guessing about adjustments, confirm the fuel in the carbs is goood & kleeen

 

[Jim]

This is a long....long....long shot Marie, but your TCI box (electronic ignition) could be acing up, causing the hard starting and dropping idle. Even as I say that, I'm doubtful.... but the idle in your videos sounded good and you say the engine otherwise runs just fine... so I'm hard pressed to find fault with the carbs. The TCI boxes are rarer than hens teeth... but I do have a spare 83 box I'd loan you to try. At the least it would eliminate that as a problem. PM me if you want to give that a try.

 

[Jim]

Jim do you know the dimension of the square hole for the valve adjuster stem? Thx

4mm

 

[5twins]

It's 4mm square. I use the 4mm open end from a Craftsman metric ignition wrench set .....

..... or now, sometimes this little "specialty" T-handle I picked up off eBay for a couple dollars .....

 

[bosco659]

4mm

View attachment 182282

Ok thanks. Wonder if that’s close to the size of a B acetylene tank valve key? I also have a mystery, “T” handle key in my toll box that may fit. Will research tomorrow.

 

[bosco659]

It's 4mm square. I use the 4mm open end from a Craftsman metric ignition wrench set .....

..... or now, sometimes this little "specialty" T-handle I picked up off eBay for a couple dollars .....

Where do you guys get all of these great photo’s. I’m always amazed that you you have relevant parts and photos available at any time. Thanks you all for the great support.

 

[5twins]

I got the first two off eBay, last two I took myself once I had the tool.

 

[5twins]

If it turns out to be carb related, a steady and consistent idle speed is dependent on several settings and adjustments being correct. Your basic speed setting is the idle speed adjusting screw of course, but the mixture screw setting works along with that so it also needs to be set pretty close. The mix screws on your carb set were capped over with a metal plug by the factory so you couldn't mess with them. I guess that was OK years back when the bikes were newer, but now most are due for a cleaning of that area and/or replacing the little o-ring on the screw that seals it in the hole. If the o-ring has gone bad, the screw won't meter the fuel/air mix as it should. Here's two mix screws, the bottom one with a new, fresh o-ring, the top one with an old hard and flattened o-ring .....

The other setting that needs to be right is your float level. Too high and the bike will run rich, too low and it could be starved for fuel at higher speeds and also hard to start. There's also the float needle and seat assembly. This is what the float pushes against to shut off the fuel flow so the carb bowls don't over-fill. It's possible yours are leaking a little bit. Running at speed can burn off the excess fuel leaking by but at idle, it may not. The bowls can start over-filling and that can choke the bike out, the idle will drop and the bike can die. Sound familiar?

 

[member28833]

There's also the float needle and seat assembly. This is what the float pushes against to shut off the fuel flow so the carb bowls don't over-fill. It's possible yours are leaking a little bit. Running at speed can burn off the excess fuel leaking by but at idle, it may not. The bowls can start over-filling and that can choke the bike out, the idle will drop and the bike can die. Sound familiar?

Yes, could as well be just a bit "dirty" with debris..

 

[MarieKaramazov]

Alright. Didn't get to as much as I wanted yesterday but here is where I'm at now.
I changed the oil. Some notes there: I feel like the oil smelt like gas. Not sure if that's normal beyond perhaps a touch, but this seemed past a touch. Smelt it several times and really got a gas like smell... I didn't find any sediment in the drained oil. It was rather dark but not black. When I went to remove the side filter, the securing nut was barely on hand tight. A good deal of oil poured out from behind it the moment I removed it. A piece of the paper gasket came off and is stuck to the inside, but I don't know how much that matters.

I didn't soak/rinse side oil filter cuz I was running out of light and wasn't sure if I could just clean in mineral spirits and stick it back in or if it had to be rinsed and/or dried etc. I just took out debris as much as I could by hand. The debris was dark but interspersed with glitter looking metal.

As you can see, the filter was a little dented/sunk in a bit originally.
When I went to put the filter back in, perhaps I had the securing bolt in crooked, but it didn't feel right and I think I may have warped it more. It's clearly warped just don't know if it was this bad before or if I did it. Either way here is what it looked like before I put it back in.

It went back in okay, and I torqued the nut to spec, but not sure if I should get a new filter and/or not run the bike with the filter like this?
Washers for drain plug... they were still there but are likely thinner than they're supposed to be. Anyone know the size of the washers? I put them back on without measuring. I could probably also find that info on partzilla
I took video of weird start up yesterday and will try to post later or tomorrow. Today I don't have too much time but plan on running the bike to see if the oil change went okay (no leaks), measuring the brushes and checking the oil in cam covers.

Oh, and I pulled the spark plugs (I did quickly try to start it quick once right before, (didn't start) but I think it should be indicative of how it ran last ride). See thumbnails below.

 

[jetmechmarty]

Gasoline in the oil means the float valve(s) is leaking in one or both of the carburetors. It usually means the fuel petcock is also not shutting off. Looking at your plugs, you’re not running rich, so gasoline is getting in the fuel while the bike is parked.

 

[Jim]

I feel like the oil smelt like gas. Not sure if that's normal beyond perhaps a touch, but this seemed past a touch.

I'd call just a hint of gas normal, any more than that wouldn't be. Your BS34 carbs are designed to let gas overflow run out the back of the carbs and not into the engine. Suggest you make a note of it and check again on the next oil change.

When I went to remove the side filter, the securing nut was barely on hand tight.

The bolt is hollow and won't take much to wring it in two. Just snugging it up is all I do.

A piece of the paper gasket came off and is stuck to the inside, but I don't know how much that matters.

It matters. You'll have to remove that to get a good seal. There's supposed to be two gaskets in there, one for the filter and one for the filter cover. Was there only just the cover?

I didn't soak/rinse side oil filter cuz I was running out of light and wasn't sure if I could just clean in mineral spirits and stick it back in or if it had to be rinsed and/or dried etc.

Normally you rinse and dry but a little mineral spirits wouldn't hurt anything.

The debris was dark but interspersed with glitter looking metal.

Since we don't have a history on the bike, we don't know how bad that is. If it were 5000 mi since the last oil change, that wouldn't be unusual, If it was only 500, that wouldn't be normal. I'd suggest putting about 2-300 miles on it and do another oil and filter change. Then we can get a better idea of what things look like.

It went back in okay, and I torqued the nut to spec, but not sure if I should get a new filter and/or not run the bike with the filter like this?

That's bent pretty bad. If it were me I'd replace it. You need the gasket that goes under it anyway.

Anyone know the size of the washers? I put them back on without measuring. I could probably also find that info on partzilla

Yes, Partzilla still has 'em... here. Maybe others will chime in with a cheaper option.