1st Post for this newb

[ScottRod Customs]

Hey there,

ScottRod here from northern Indiana. I'm about to pick up my first XS650 this weekend and I'm stoked. I've owned many many motorcycles, (mostly Harleys), over the years, but never one of these. I love vintage bikes and have been itching to build a show quality chopper to promote my new motorcycle service business.
Being the kind of guy I am, I seem to always go a little farther than I need to, to accomplish a simple goal.
I've been lurking around a while and doing alot of reading on the popular modifications to these machines, and one of them is the "re-phase". My big question is: Is this necessary for a chopper build? Obviously, it's not really "necessary", but are most ground-up builds being done with re-phased motors these days? I get the power, smoothness and sound, but can I just do normal hop ups like exhaust, carbs, big bore etc, without the complete re-phase and such?

Scott
ScottRod Customs, LLC
Warsaw, IN

 

[weekendrider]

Re-phase not required. I suppose it would add a line to the "I did" list.
Welcome to the site and good luck with the new business.

 

[willis]

Welcome to the site. Good to see another Northern Indiana representation here, as I hail from Ft. Wayne. This site is the BEST when it comes to technical resources. So much knowledge floating around here you can always find help with any issues you might encounter. I would recommend doing your research thoroughly before jumping into major modifications such as re-phase or PMA's. There are a lot of different opinions and preferences to what can be done with these machines. As you will learn, we all love pictures here, so be sure to post some up when you pick up your project. It would also be good to see you start a build thread to those interested in your work can follow and share ideas. Good luck and welcome aboard.

 

[ScottRod Customs]

Thank you. Most of my work will be purely cosmetic, but being a Harley guy primarily, I'm going to keep the re-phase in the back of my mind for engine options.
To me, vibrations are what make a motorcycle the most enjoyable. If I want a long trip on a smooth bike, I'll take my Road Glide, but I also like the idea of changing it's sound and performance, so we'll see. Perhaps I just need to attend the rally in Ohio and see and hear some for myself. I'll post a pic when I get her home.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Quote;
" I get the power, smoothness and sound"

Are you saying, you think a re-phase will increase horse power? You only get more horse power if you increase displacement, add more fuel/air such as super charging or turbo charging, or change to a hotter cam/bigger valves, etc.

A re-phase is not going to make your engine run smoothly. It may just change the nature of the vibes.

Yes, it should change the sound, but that's a very expensive way to get a different sound.

Re-phase is an attempt to be "different", but its hard to improve on the classic 360 degree engine design.

 

[fredintoon]

Hey there,

ScottRod here from northern Indiana. I'm about to pick up my first XS650 this weekend and I'm stoked. I've owned many many motorcycles, (mostly Harleys), over the years, but never one of these. I love vintage bikes and have been itching to build a show quality chopper to promote my new motorcycle service business.
Being the kind of guy I am, I seem to always go a little farther than I need to, to accomplish a simple goal.
I've been lurking around a while and doing alot of reading on the popular modifications to these machines, and one of them is the "re-phase". My big question is: Is this necessary for a chopper build? Obviously, it's not really "necessary", but are most ground-up builds being done with re-phased motors these days? I get the power, smoothness and sound, but can I just do normal hop ups like exhaust, carbs, big bore etc, without the complete re-phase and such?

Scott
ScottRod Customs, LLC
Warsaw, IN

Hi Scott and welcome,
thing is, when XS650s left the factory they were fully functional motorcycles, meant to move your arse down the road and never mind what they looked like.
But as I'm sure you are aware, a show quality chopper ain't for that, it's primarily an art work, meant to look pretty and perhaps "themed" to promote a cause or a business.
So it don't matter how well it goes or stops or corners or if it can be ridden comfortably, it's all about how it looks.
Of course, it's best if it works as good as it looks, eh?

 

[fredintoon]

Quote;
" I get the power, smoothness and sound"

Are you saying, you think a re-phase will increase horse power? You only get more horse power if you increase displacement, add more fuel/air such as super charging or turbo charging, or change to a hotter cam/bigger valves, etc.

A re-phase is not going to make your engine run smoothly. It may just change the nature of the vibes.

Yes, it should change the sound, but that's a very expensive way to get a different sound.

Re-phase is an attempt to be "different", but its hard to improve on the classic 360 degree engine design.

Hi RG,
gotta call you on this one.
Building a vertical twin with it's crank pins at 90º (or at 83º on an XS650) instead of at 0º reduces it's primary out-of-balance by ~44%.
Which, as you say, (absent lumpy cams, hi-comp pistons & fancy carburettors etc.) don't increase the engine's power one bit.
What it DOES do is decrease the engine's vibration.
Which lets you actually USE the engine's full power without the vibration shaking your fillings loose.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Hi RG,
gotta call you on this one.
Building a vertical twin with it's crank pins at 90º (or at 83º on an XS650) instead of at 0º reduces it's primary out-of-balance by ~44%.
Which, as you say, (absent lumpy cams, hi-comp pistons & fancy carburettors etc.) don't increase the engine's power one bit.
What it DOES do is decrease the engine's vibration.
Which lets you actually USE the engine's full power without the vibration shaking your fillings loose.

I don't believe it reduces vibration. I'd say it just moves the vibes to a different rpm. Why does anyone want to reduce vibration....................my bike runs quite smooth at the speeds I travel at. If guys want a super smooth bike, they should buy a bike with a balance shaft or a 4 cylinder, which are naturally balanced.

With the stock 360 degree design, if you have the engine tuned properly, there's no problem using the engines full power.

 

[nj1639]

Nothing like the sound and vibe of a well balanced 360

 

[peanut]

Nothing like the sound and vibe of a well balanced 360

best sound in the World..........well after a V8 of course
I have no vibration issues with my 79 at all which I think is due to correct timing and setting up . my old BSA 650 spitfire would make your hands and feet numb within 10 miles

 

[ScottRod Customs]

Here she is!

 

[peanut]

looks grand !

the seat is a big improvement over the later stepped Special 'king & queen' ..I dig the high bars and forward pegs for comfortable cruisin.... except they look a bit too close to the headers

 

[ScottRod Customs]

By this time next year, I hope to have built a hardtail chopper out of it, so most of those parts will go into a box or Ebay I suspect.

 

[nj1639]

Yep, looks great! That clutch cover looks chromed, she's so shiney.

 

[fredintoon]

By this time next year, I hope to have built a hardtail chopper out of it, so most of those parts will go into a box or Ebay I suspect.

Hi Scott,
while I grudgingly accept that it's yours to do with as you will, that's just too bad.
What you could do is find a pre-vandalized frame to drop that nice motor into and keep the stock frame somewhere safe for when your creative frenzy has abated and you find the need to swap the nice motor back into something that's rideable.

 

[ScottRod Customs]

Hi Fredintoon,
I appreciate your concern and figured that there would be some on here who are more of the "purist" type. That's what makes these types of forums awesome, the diversity! As far as ride quality, I have a 2015 Harley touring bike for that. As for value, I've always looked at it this way...in absolute mint condition, a restored 1978 XS650 like mine would probably not bring more than $3000. While these bikes are getting harder to find, they will never be a high-dollar item in my lifetime, so cutting one up to make a show bike to promote my business isn't going to cost me alot or make me regret doing so. NOW, that said, would I do the same thing to an old Triumph, BSA or Norton twin? Probably not. I really do appreciate a finely restored classic motorcycle, even Japanese ones like these, but in the circles I hang out with, a full-blown custom chopper built from an "XS" or a Honda "CB" will take my business farther than a restored one.

 

[weekendrider]

Hmmm so you are saying 10-20K in marketing value and 100K in sales beats losing 3-5K on a bike?
Am I following this correctly? If so I;d say you have a pretty sharp pencil and the new customer possibility will give you nothing but long days
and strong cash flow. Are you sure you want the grief of a successful business?

 

[ScottRod Customs]

Not sure I follow you, Weekendrider...I'm not saying anything except for I bought this bike for $1200 and plan to build it to draw attention to my business, and that is ALL I'm saying. I mainly do motorcycle service, repair and tire changes for the most part. I also work full-time in the medical device industry.

 

[fredintoon]

Hi Fredintoon,
I appreciate your concern and figured that there would be some on here who are more of the "purist" type. - - -

Hi Scott,
"purist" is it? So, it's down to insults now? I deny the charge, it is without worth and totally untrue.
You are not alone in hacking up a classic bike, I too have done this thing.
I started with a true classic, a 1938 Velocette MOV.
Removed it's frame's rigid rear end, welded on a poorboy copy of a McCandless swingarm conversion, swapped the girder forks for Dowty airspring teleforks and added a dual seat.
But while what I did ruined a classic bike to improve it's ride, your conversion will ruin a classic bike to make an elegant showpiece for your business.
Good luck with that, I hope it works out well for you.
But back to saving the frame. Seems that in the USA it's easier to register a handgun than it is to get a bike titled. An unmodified titled XS650 frame could be a valuable asset, well worth the extra effort of finding a chopper frame, eh?

 

[ScottRod Customs]

"purist" is it? So, it's down to insults now? I deny the charge, it is without worth and totally untrue.

I meant no disrespect at all sir. I will more than likely use the hardtail kit from the likes of TC Bros. so the title will remain valid. I have to say, though, riding the bike "as is" at lunch time was a hoot. There is a part, albeit small part, of me that would like to keep it original, but then my search for a chopper donor would have to start all over with no money to spare.