A list for debugging non-starting issues

thunderdork

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Does anybody have a list on how to debug non-starting issues? in particular no spark?

It would be nice to have a run down on how to debug certain models. Like where to test for voltage, how to isolate the system causing the problem, etc.

I'm still chasing my tail trying to figure out why i'm not getting a spark. i've replaced the points, condensers and ignition coils. It would be nice to have a check list of sorts or know the procedures that a mechanic would use to diagnos an issue.
 
Your bike is a one off "custom" job. So it would be hard to say without being there to work through it. This assumption is from looking at the pictures in you other thread.

Not to be discouraging but you have a long row to hoe.
Second thing would be to look at wiring diagram for the '77 and try to figure out what was added/deleted? Not only the wiring but the other components as well.
Any place you find a crimped butt connecter could be subject. The originals will be the bullet type connections.

First you might read this thread. Leo does a fine job of describing "What happens when you turn your key on".
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9625&highlight=turn+key
 
Hey, thunderdork, maybe your best bet is to try to lookup member 'Dogbunny', he's in the central Austin area and goes thru XS's like cats thru cattle panel...
 
I was going to suggest your repair manual, but as it's not stock that might not help much. But I still recommend reading the repair manual first. It's trouble shooting sections just might be what you need.
Leo
 
wow, thanks for the replies. I might have to look Dogbunny up.

If anybody has some helpful tips on what all places to test for continuity/voltage/resistance (plugs, coils, points, etc) to help narrow things down on a generic level that would be awesome. This bike is starting to look like a tear down/build up project though.

Just frustrating that it was running for the first 3 days till it rained.
 
I had a 75 Kawasaki H1 500. It didn't like the rain much. It had the coils mounted under the tank but far enough forward that the front tire threw water up on the coils. The water seeped into the caps where the plug wires hooked to the coil. This gave an easier path to ground than threw the plugs.
I doubt this is your problem.
The first thing I would do is check the voltage on the red/white wire at the coils. With the key switch on, engine stop switch in run, check the battery voltage at the battery, now check the voltage on the red/white wire. They should be the same or at most .3 volts lower at the red/white wire.
If the voltage is lower than that, it's probably dirty contacts in the key switch or engine stop switch. My 81 was having a no power situation the other day, I had to remove the key switch, take it apart and clean the contacts. Works great now.
The engine stop switch can be disassembled and cleaned too.
Now with good power to the coils the next thing to check is the points. When the points are open you should get a voltage reading very close to battery voltage when you check for voltage at the points. If the points are closed you won't get any voltage reading because the points ground the coils when closed.
If you crank the engine while checking the voltage at the points it will jump back and forth from a voltage reading to no reading. This means your points are opening and closing.
Your points need to spend the right amount closed to fully charge the coils so when they open the coil fires the plugs. The points are closed for a certain amount of degrees of angle. This is called dwell angle. If the dwell angle is set wrong the coils won't be turned on and off the right amount of time.
Adjusting the gap is now you set the dwell angle. If too close the coil won't get a full charge. If too wide the coil won't have enough time to discharge before the next charge cycle begins.
The points have to be clean and smooth to get the best contact. So you need to clean them. A points file works best. A few strokes of a points file smooths the surfaces. Your feeler gauges have a thin coat of oil to prevent rust, this oil can get left on the points. Once adjusted use a white paper, like business cards are made from, cut in 1/4 inch wide strips. Spray a bit of electrical contact cleaner on the paper. Open the points with a finger, insert the damp paper strip, let point close, pull out paper, repeat as need till the paper comes out clean.
If you can't get the points clean replace them.
Once the gaps are set you need ti time them. The repair manual gives you good instructions on this.
Leo
 
wow, thanks xsleo, that's some amazing info. that helps a lot with some other questions.

good new is after some jiggling, is i'm getting spark now, it seems weak as I can only hear and see it 6 inches from my face.

So I did like you said and I'm getting bout 12v on the battery. but when i connect the multimeter to the red/white and the neg of my battery i only get 9v.

Would jumpering from the pos to my coil by pass this? i had tried that but the spark still seemed kind of weak.
 
That much voltage drop is an issue all in itself. This can not only lead to ignition problems but problems throughout the entire electrical system.
It could be in several places. A bad connection some where or a dirty switch can cause such a drop. I read your other thread and posted a comment there.
In my earlier post I talked about how you can remove and clean the key switch and engine stop switch.
I recommend doing this.
Running a jumper right from battery + to the red/white at the coils bypasses all the switches and wiring between the battery and coils. When you do this put the engine stop switch in the off position. If in the run position power will back feed and try to power other things.
If you are right out in the bright sunlight seeing even a good spark can be hard. Move it inside and have just enough light to see what you are doing or throw a tarp over the bike and you while you test for spark. This cuts down the extra light so seeing the spark is easier.
Leo
 
While you are jumping wires get a ground from the battery to the the coils and engine, amazing how many chooper builders ignore electrical 101.
 
I suggest looking up Dogbunny as well. When I was down there he was very helpful with parts, including delivering emergency parts, to the best of my recollection. He will also lead you on rides to the best brisket places for supper. It's kind of a phenomenon how many xs650s are in Austin.

in particular no spark?

You don't say what ignition you have. With my '81 stock ignition if there was no spark, the first thing I would do would be check my battery. Then I would check my pickup coil. Then I would swap out my ignition (only requires plugging it in). Then I would check my ignition coil. Then I would check all my wiring. In that order.

Leo, there's a material around called high voltage putty. It was used with connections to old picture tubes. It's high temp and doesn't dry. Last time I was in the rain I misfired so bad I ran out of gas. I might find some of the stuff and cram it in the coil towers.
 
Using a relay like that will give full battery power to the coils. I have my 75 set up that way. Even if the engine stop switch is poor and won't carry the needed power for the ignition it will carry enough to trip the relay.
This relay mod can be found almost everywhere. The after market catalogs like J&P Cycles sells a kit.
It makes for a more direct power path to the ignition. On a stock bike the power flows through a fuse, the key switch, the engine stop switch. If you counts all the connections in this circuit it can have 27 connections. With the relay it can have 7 connections. Each connection can be a voltage drop. With fewer connections you have less places for a bad connection to happen.
Leo
 
Thanks 5Twins and XSLeo, I actually might give that a go, even as just a performance increase. Is jumpering from the pos of the battery to the ignition coil basically the same thing? The relay just turns the connection off and on for you with the ignition switch?
 
Yes, pretty much you have the jumper wire with a switch in it. The switch is just controlled electrically. You can have it turn on/off with the key switch or the engine stop switch.
Leo
 
Does anybody have a recommendation for a relay? Anybody know the specs I'm looking for? A model number or Autozone part number would be awesome!
 
a horn, headlight, or accessory relay is dirt common at any auto parts store.
 
Any off the 4 terminal relays will work. Do you have an auto salvage yard near you. I usually pick up some relays there. Cars use them for air conditioning, fuel pumps. lighting. Most are 5 terminal relays. The last time I was there I picked up 6 or 8 for just a few bucks.
Leo
 
I think he's saying 5 terminal is fine, they just have an NC contact that you can ignore.
 
I ended up going to autozone. first round the kid gave me a flashing relay. didn't realize it till i got it installed and heard it clicking :)

But if anybody is curious I ended up with "Engine Management & Ignition" relay from behind the counter that was actually half the price ($9.99). If anybody is interest its a Valuecraft. Part number 19263VC.

I got it installed and it works perfectly. Everybody should do this mod. Its so nice to get things started with one easy kick.
 
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