Anlaf's fourth rebuild disaster

[ANLAF]

ThreeBond arrived this morning.
Put the bike back together this afternoon.
Started first time...

...then down to one cylinder. Oiled-up left cylinder plug.

Oh! no... oh! no.

I had a cup of tea and gave it a little thought - and I'm still thinking.

Anlaf

 

[weaselbeak]

I don't know what you are getting wrong, but your problem is very far from normal with a 650 Yamaha. You have a devil bike.

 

[peanut]

ThreeBond arrived this morning.
Put the bike back together this afternoon.
Started first time...

...then down to one cylinder. Oiled-up left cylinder plug.

Oh! no... oh! no.

I had a cup of tea and gave it a little thought - and I'm still thinking.

Anlaf

oh bluddy ell Anlaf thats awful

Have you had your torque wrench checked against another ? hsave you tried tightening the head by feel after its been torqued to see if it 'feels ' right...tight enough ?

This is a new engine for crissakes .

Do you think that if you added a flourescent dye to your oil , when you strip down you should be able to see where the oil has been leaking into the bores.?

You really should do a proper compression test to see if anything shows up

 

[NONclow]

25 eu each + installer is quite a tab, but... I won't get into that again. Sorry man, but if it wasn't for bad luck eh? Anyhoo... don't you have another head? Any thoughts on using that one (guides/valves/plug thread holes in good condition)? For the most part all you'll be out is another head gasket (unless new guides)

IMO you shouldn't NEED sealant on head gaskets.... just sayin'....er typin'

I'm mixin' the "T" a little strong o'er here

 

[peanut]

IMO you shouldn't NEED sealant on head gaskets....:

you shouldn't... if the head gaskets are quality controlled and made of good quality materials ...and head and block were straight....

If I could locate some I would use copper gaskets or copper cored every time .

 

[ANLAF]

Thanks for the words of support, fellers.

First, I will go out now and get a compression tester.

Second, (after testing) I will strip the bike again (fifth time, yahoo!).

Third, I will fit cylinder head from engine Number 2.

Fourth, put it all back together and see what happens.

Anlaf

 

[member3480]

Hey man I been reading your posts and just from experience building way too many of these motors did you ever look for loose valve guide or cracked head???
I had a motor come in about two years ago sounds the same one cylinder got oil all over it after bike started to run for 5 mins then shut off. Head was cracked in spring pocket and could not see it. I found it because owner told me he had spit off the locking nut while riding and sure as shit when motor heated up crack opened and oil from head went onto piston. You did this 4 times sounds like you got a bad part there somewhere. I have also have had warped heads that no matter how you seal it oil leaks threw gasket. Had to have them take some off to make them even again.
Good luck with your search.
Rich

 

[ANLAF]

Daddygcycles - it has to be the head (new cylinders, pistons, rings, ThreeBond sealant).

Just did the compression test:

Right cylinder - 142
Left cylinder - 114.

That's on the first test, with me not knowing how many kicks I should give it.

Anlaf

 

[I am Carbon]

Oh my that's not good.
I'm sure it's the head too.
Good luck Anlaf Brother Good luck
I also like to give gasket sealers 24 hour to cure

 

[peanut]

Daddygcycles - it has to be the head (new cylinders, pistons, rings, ThreeBond sealant).

Just did the compression test:

Right cylinder - 142
Left cylinder - 114.

That's on the first test, with me not knowing how many kicks I should give it.

Anlaf

there is no set rule about number of revolutions but to be sure of getting a maximum reading most authorities suggest 7-10 revolutions with the throttle wide open .
Any less and its likely to get a less than maximum reading.

I wish you had done the compression test way back on the first thread you started about this on engine rebuild #1 . They are so diagnostic and eliminate guesswork.

Its clear there is a significant compression leak somewhere . Like daddygcycles says it could be a fracture somewhere out of sight like under the valve spring seat washer or around a valve guide . a sticking valve . Its possible that the head or block is distorting under maximum torquing pressure .

I think you need to remove the studs and resurface both the block face and the head so that you can at least eliminate that. Its a good point that Carbon has made about letting the gasket cement fully cure . it doesn't go hard but it must need a certain time to cure presumably

 

[peanut]

Left cylinder - 114.

That's on the first test, with me not knowing how many kicks I should give it.

Anlaf

you might try doing the compression test by sticking it in second or third gear and pushing it along with the tester in the spark plug hole . It would be easier than kicking

 

[5twins]

When you test compression, you kick until the gauge stops rising, however many kicks that takes. Could be 3 or 4, could be 8 or 10, could be more, whatever it takes.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hey, ANLAF, there's a mention of compression testing in here:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26983

 

[peanut]

When you test compression, you kick until the gauge stops rising, however many kicks that takes. Could be 3 or 4, could be 8 or 10, could be more, whatever it takes.

errr isn't that what I said in my post ?

'there is no set rule about number of revolutions but to be sure of getting a maximum reading etc

 

[5twins]

Your "etc." went on to suggest 7 to 10 kicks. A newbie reading that could get the idea that anything more than 10 could bring the world to an end or something, lol. Like I said, there's no set rule on the number of kicks needed. You go at it until the gauge stops rising. Usually that's 10 kicks or less, but not always. Try it with the throttle closed and you could be kicking for days, lol. Also, a warm engine will give better readings than a cold one so it's best to test when the motor is warm or hot.

In this case, warm or cold probably doesn't matter. The large difference between cylinders is the important "find" here and that would show up warm or cold.

 

[peanut]

Y
Like I said, there's no set rule on the number of kicks needed. You go at it until the gauge stops rising. Usually that's 10 kicks or less, but not always.


.

well arn't we all being a bit picky here ? I thought that is pretty much what I said in my post as I recall.

No set rule.......obtain a maximum reading......throttle wide open ? must be missing something here.

Anyway ..back on topic Anlaf is probably half way through a bottle of Scotch by now ..

If its any consolation Anlaf it cannot be anything obvious or you would definitely have spotted it by now as you are clearly methodical and careful.

.

 

[ANLAF]

Your support is great, fellers.

I just spent the afternoon stripping down the bike again, cleaning the surfaces, looking for flaws, etc.

When I did the fourth rebuild yesterday, I started up as soon as it was torqued down - I may have done the obvious error there because looking at the head gasket today I saw the trail of oil at ten past twelve looking at the top of the head gasket left cylinder. this is much less than the previous oil trails, and I kick myself for not giving the sealant chance to 'go off' before sucking in the oil.

Today I have bolted-up and left the thing to cure.

Fingers crossed, my friends.

Anlaf

 

[ANLAF]

Leaving it to cure means no turning the engine in any way.

Anlaf

 

[member3480]

Do you have a spare head to try another and did you take the valves out at any time and not re lap them??? 114 is almost a ring or bore problem. Sometimes you get things bored and you think they did a good job but didn't. Next time you take a head off with spark plug in flip upside down and fill pocket with kero or WD40 something a little heaver than gas and let it sit for a couple hours. Old school but works if valves or valve guide bad it will leak right threw fast. I do it when I am cleaning heads in dunk tank and just found a guide on a head cracked the other day. You are dealing with old very used motors and don't leave anything to chance.

 

[peanut]

I have to say given that it looks to be a head gasket problem I;m surprised you didn't skim the head at least ?
All I did was to use a sheet of 240 wet and dry ,spray mounted to a flat surface.

Fingers crossed for you