Camshaft Seal

[cpotts454]

Hey guys. First time poster on the new forum. Site looks great.. keep up the good work!

Ive been having a ton of trouble getting an oil leak to stop. It seems to be coming through the camshaft seal into the points and advancing housing and then dripping onto the heads.. then on to my legs and bike at high speed..

Ive read this post

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=816&highlight=camshaft+seal

and have done most of all the suggestions with the exception of xsjohns new spring (I dont have a spare fork seal spring to try this out) and the suggestion about making sure the bearings are all the way center.

Can you use a socket and drift while the head is torqued or do you have to loosen the head in order to confirm they are all the way center?

What is everyone using to clean the cam where the seal rides?

Anyone else had any luck with other methods?

I gotta fix this before I do any long trips, its just a annoying for around town driving, but you go on a 100 mile ride you and the bike will be covered in oil.

Thanks guys!

 

[inxs]

- can leak through the seal, if worn, or past the seal, if the housing and head surfaces arent spotless

 

[xsjohn]

Betting you didn't try increasing the spring tension some on the seal if that's where it's leaking from....that costs nothing....fixed many that way myself......

And maybe you have to much positive crankcase pressure.......a one way valve may help too.....

Measuring to see if the cam is in the center is possible I would suspect..........

xsjohn

 

[cpotts454]

inxs - The housing and head surfaces are spotless... every time I removed the covers to try and fix the leak I clean them exceptionally well. The only thing I havent attempted to clean is the cam shaft itself, and this is because I am not sure what abrasive material I should use to clean it. It looks clean to the eye and to the touch, but I do suppose that it would be contaminated.

xsjohn - with the exception of a fork seal spring, is there any other method of increasing spring tension? I just purchased 2 new camshaft seals to be 100% sure they are not buggered. How do you recommend to measure the center of the camshaft? And is there a measurement for how far in the cam bearings should ride?

As far as crankcase pressure, what kind of valve do I purchase and where do I install it?

Thanks guys!

 

[xsjohn]

I have never measured it from the sides.......I always measure the chainwheel to be exactly in the center between the cylinders...and kinda look to see that the bearings are somewhat correct on the sides.......and that the bearings are inward to the cam....then before I put the cap on I tap the cam downward on both sides next to the bearings with a piece of brass to center the bearings in the races after I am sure everything is centered right...........makes them quiet that way....and may save the cam bearings in the long run too...you should be able to measure the bearing indent on the sides though with a caliper (far end) to see if the bearings are centered or not robing room for the seal cover.........

getting the front guide centered perfectly on the chain is important too...that's another thing.........if I have to have the cylinders off I measure that to the center on both sides (top and bottom)........if the cylinders are not off I loosen the front guide and rotate the engine to feel it in front to be centered.........have even slightly loosened the chan tensioner and then loosened the front 2 bolts on the cam with the engine running and move the guide until I am satified......might be an advanced method there..... LOL

Any larger spring from any another seal.......get it about the same size as the original with the ends opened so they hook together......I put the hooked together part on top ................

Mikesxs sells the one way valve and others use a brake booster one way valve I think it's called.....from the engine side you should be able to blow but not suck.....would think that you need to get that seal correct and not rely totally on the valve to do it............

Forgot........I have seen some of the breathers on the earlier double spigot ones that had steel wool packed in there behind the rear cover to reduce oil leaving I would guess.......one that I had here the steel wool was rusted up and would hardley let air pass........guess it might be good to at least make sure the breather wasn't cloged and see if it was releasing the pressure decently like at idol where it seems to be the most...?...in and out........

xsjohn

 

[cpotts454]

Thanks John. Those are some good tips. I just bought some VMs from 650central, great guy to deal with by the way, so when I go to install them I will check the breather and install a one way valve. I have the 2 spigot type, do you think plugging one tube and blowing into the other with an air compressor will be a satisfactory test of operation.

I have noticed that the oil only leaks out while the bike is running, and has been running for a period of time on the road, not just sitting still. This could be because the longer the motor runs the more oil gets on the top end, but I think it might also indicate built up pressure in the rocker box.

Thanks for the tips... I am excited to finally get this problem resolved. Its been an annoyance for way to long.

 

[malloym]

I discovered a trick for installing the cam seal without causing any damage to it... how did you install the seal?? if you hammered it in, it's probably distored and is causing your leak..

here is how I did mine. I had 2 pieces of 3/8" plate lying around, I used my bench wise and made a sandwich with the plates and the cam seal and housing, using the vise I pressed the seal in... works perfect and puts the seal flush with the housing.

 

[cpotts454]

malloym, I installed it like this... I placed the seal into the cover just snug by hand... I then placed the cover on head with the o-ring installed on the cover.. (I used to install a gasket too, but after trial and error I found that it seems to seal better with just gasket sealant and o-ring, but no gasket) I then placed the 3 screws and tightened down the cover which in turn pressed the gasket into the cover. Does anyone think this is a bad idea?

After researching about the breather (one thing on this bike I have not payed much attention to) I think I might have excess head pressure building up causing the gasket to leak. I am going to take the breather off and clean it, and install the one way check valve and see if this produces any result. Does anyone know if I can take the breather off while the motor is still mounted?

Thanks for your interest malloym!

 

[xsjohn]

The breather will come off with the engine in the frame........probably will need to get or make a gasket...........would only need one of the spigots with a one way valve......that double spigot will press of and maybe a copper reduction cap could be found to make a single spigot protrude straight back or angle any way........ could be JB welded in.......I have a double here and pressed it apart easily...for inspection last year.......

Kinda hard getting the metal baffel plate out of the back if that's what you want.........would think it would still be needed even with the one way valve...........


xsjohn

 

[inxs]

- the single vent version should bolt in and is smaller...gasket has the same part nr

 

[cpotts454]

Update guys... I checked the breather by plugging one tube and blowing into the other. With the dipstick in it built up pressure quick. I took the dip stick out and could blow easily. I assume this is a good enough test to confirm the breather isn't clogged?

I purchased 2 power brake check valves and plan on installing them on the breather hoses after my new VM carbs get here. Since I confirmed that the breather wasn't clogged do you think that my crankcase is still being over-pressurized?

I think my plan of attack on this one is just to install those check valves and see if it makes a difference in my oil weeping. Good ol trial and error. If it doesnt work I guess I will be pulling the rocker box off and taking a look internally.

Thanks for the advice... I would have never thought the breather would have any importance in oil control!

 

[xsjohn]

Only need one valve.......once the engine achieves a bit of negitave pressure like after the 1st rev very little air will come out.........still betting you haven't tried a bit heavier spring on the cam shaft seal.......to me that's a no brainer if it is leaking at the seal........

xsjohn

 

[cpotts454]

Nope john, I have not tried the heaver spring. I cant find any heaver springs to use.. I do have about 4 extra cam seals laying around if you know how to make one of those springs stronger. lol. Also, I bought two brake check valves because I have the dual spigot type breather and I dont want to go thru with the trouble of making it a single spigot at the moment... Maybe in the future. Thanks for your help though buddy!

 

[cheftay]

cpotts, Did you get the one way valves from mikes or just from the local auto parts store?
Everytime I go into Oreileys the guys ask what kind of car i need it for and I try to explain that it's for a motorcycle and they just look confused and say that they can't help me out.
So i guess what i'm trying to say is, if you got them from the auto parts store.... what did you get so I can explain to these guys next time I go in to get one.

 

[Gordon]

Potts, you can 'tighten' the spring by un-screwing the ends & removing 5 turns of the larger part of the spring with a good set of dyke's. Then smoothen out the curl on a bench grinder. Screw the spring back together and seat it back into the groove in the seal. Done.
I have done this allot in automotive application's, front crank seals where the crank has a groove worn in it. Works great, and is permanent.