CDI massive voltage drop with headlight on

[retiredgentleman]

The capacitor itself isn't to blame. I've been running [trouble free] for 8 years on a tiny little capacitor. A battery is only a solution when the battery works. When was the last time you had a battery go for 8 years without having to touch it? For that matter, when was the last time you had a stock alternator go for 8 years without touching it?

You can't condemn all PMA/capacitor setups because of the poor execution of some.

When I bought my bike it came with a battery which looked like new, but age unknown. It finally failed about 2 years ago, after 8 years of my use. I consider that to be very good service, as I use the electric starter for all starts. Never use an external charger during riding season.

I believe my stock alternator is the original alternator. I have owned and driven the bike for 10 years now, with no problems at all. Total touching involved replacing brushes after about 7 years of use..................takes about 10 minutes. I do clean the slip rings once per year..............also takes maybe 10 minutes. Very little maintenance required.

Quote:
"Can't condemn all PMA/capacitor setups because of poor execution of some"
I totally agree.....................that's why I suggested the lads should use Japanese high quality parts. I think I recall that you use Japanese parts for your charging system. Am I correct on that?

What I do condemn is young lads on these web sites being marketed and sold sub standard, poor quality, Taiwan/Chinese electrical parts. They then delete the battery and use a capacitor. That makes for a bad combination. They are paying expensive prices but are not being delivered any value for their money.

 

[fredintoon]

The capacitor itself isn't to blame. I've been running [trouble free] for 8 years on a tiny little capacitor. A battery is only a solution when the battery works. When was the last time you had a battery go for 8 years without having to touch it? For that matter, when was the last time you had a stock alternator go for 8 years without touching it?
You can't condemn all PMA/capacitor setups because of the poor execution of some.

Hi mrriggs
three things:-
First,
Chinese-sourced PMA systems have the same problem on modern bikes as Lucas electrics did on Britbikes and for the same reason.
"Hi Mr Lucas, how much will you ask for a nice reliable electrical system for our bikes?
Umm, about ten pounds should do it.
Hmm, whatcha got for two pounds ten shillings?"
Second,
Although a good quality properly installed PMA will work just as well as the stock twirling electromagnet thingie (although, why bother to swap? ain't there chromed bling you could buy instead?) capacitors are inherently inferior to batteries.
Run a battery and the alternator quits you can still ride the bike home to fix it.
Run a capacitor and the alternator quits you better have a cell phone to call a bro with truck and a credit card too if you need to call a tow truck.
That or you are in sight of home and it's a downhill push.
Third,
Batteries, like tires, drive chains, brake pads etc. are consumables.
My batteries average a 4-year lifespan, most likely they'd do better if they operated year-round instead of having to survive winter storage.
And my original stock alternator is still working, admittedly I've changed the brushes twice. Perhaps add alternator brushes to the consumables list?

 

[mrriggs]

When I bought my bike it came with a battery which looked like new, but age unknown. It finally failed about 2 years ago, after 8 years of my use. I consider that to be very good service, as I use the electric starter for all starts. Never use an external charger during riding season.

I believe my stock alternator is the original alternator. I have owned and driven the bike for 10 years now, with no problems at all. Total touching involved replacing brushes after about 7 years of use..................takes about 10 minutes. I do clean the slip rings once per year..............also takes maybe 10 minutes. Very little maintenance required.

I realize that my comments made it sound as if I was talking down the stock system. Properly maintained, the stock system can be very reliable. The point I was trying to make is that a PMA can be equally as reliable as the stock system but without the maintenance.

Quote:
"Can't condemn all PMA/capacitor setups because of poor execution of some"
I totally agree.....................that's why I suggested the lads should use Japanese high quality parts. I think I recall that you use Japanese parts for your charging system. Am I correct on that?

I used genuine Nippon-Denso [OEM] parts. If you compare them side by side with the aftermarket parts the difference is quite obvious. The aftermarket parts [that I have inspected] look like they are half done. The stators are missing critical pieces like insulators and strain relief bracket. The rotors did not have a ground taper [didn't fit the crankshaft] and did not appear to be balanced.

 

[hooser]

For all lads

I realize that my comments made it sound as if I was talking down the stock system. Properly maintained, the stock system can be very reliable. The point I was trying to make is that a PMA can be equally as reliable as the stock system but without the maintenance.



I used genuine Nippon-Denso [OEM] parts. If you compare them side by side with the aftermarket parts the difference is quite obvious. The aftermarket parts [that I have inspected] look like they are half done. The stators are missing critical pieces like insulators and strain relief bracket. The rotors did not have a ground taper [didn't fit the crankshaft] and did not appear to be balanced.

trying to run PMA electrical systems, a few suggestions. There is a Search box in the upper right corner of the page.
Type in some words such as ................"PMA hot wires". You will find many posts from the last 5 or 6 years. Similar problems in all of them..................stators with poor insulation, stators getting very hot, stator to rec/reg wires getting very hot and sometimes melting, regulators producing very high voltage, regulators producing very low voltages.

Many excuses are offered......................poor installation by the buyer, a bad batch somehow slipped through quality control, poor or wrong solder was used, etc. etc.

Here's my advice, you can take it or leave it. Stop buying the cheaply made, poor quality kits that are made in Taiwan/China. These kits are being sold by Mikesxs, HHB and other aftermarket sellers. They are of an inferior design of light duty construction. If you want a PMA system, only buy high quality parts that are designed and
made in Japan.

Or made in Germany

 

[hooser]

Here is a very good article on PMA and regultors.
http://www.electrosport.com/technic...articles/how-motorcycle-charging-system-works

I was a Broadcast engineer and Asst. Chief engineer for 15 of 24 years, .Built many power supplies and 12 volt regulators and never had a battery connected to them.. Regulators do not like surges, on my Powerdynamo they recommend and I have followed leaving the lights on.. seems to have worked well for a few years.I run without a battery or cap, the light will get brighter as the rpms increase, As far as running a capacitor, capacitor have a limited shelf life... we ran into that with TV's back in the day... The biggest failure was the electrolytic caps. Later in the regulated power supplies they would be the part that usually went bad. TheY have not improve over the years and that is what you are using on your bikes. who know how old they are even though they are new. Read the article as it talks about better regulators and how they work. Gary

 

[mrriggs]

Second,
Although a good quality properly installed PMA will work just as well as the stock twirling electromagnet thingie (although, why bother to swap? ain't there chromed bling you could buy instead?) capacitors are inherently inferior to batteries.
Run a battery and the alternator quits you can still ride the bike home to fix it.
Run a capacitor and the alternator quits you better have a cell phone to call a bro with truck and a credit card too if you need to call a tow truck.
That or you are in sight of home and it's a downhill push.

Ah, but you forgot the third [and most likely] scenario; the battery dies and the bike won't start. With a PMA you could unplug the battery and fire it up with the kick starter. With the stock alternator you would need to get a jump start.

Why bother to swap? A PMA gives you the option of running with or without a battery. I personally don't like batteries. There are already too many damn batteries that I have to take care of. If there is any way that I can avoid them, I do. If you want to run a battery as a backup then that works too. In my experience, a [good] PMA is far more reliable than a battery.

Oh, and a little tip for guys running without a battery. If the alternator does crap out on you, there is no need to call a bro with a truck. You can unplug the headlight and plug an auxiliary battery pack into the headlight socket. If you are going on an extended trip, keep one in the tool kit. Didn't bring one? Find a convenience store and buy some D-cells and tape. Where there's a will there's a way.

As much as I enjoy discussing the virtues of charging systems, it's really not relevant to the original question.

My first thought on issues like this is always GROUND. It's gets overlooked all the time because it's rarely drawn out on the diagram, just that cool little triangle symbol. Any current that goes through the positive side has to also go through the ground path. You mentioned that you tried running a ground wire from the headlight to the frame. Have you tried connecting it directly to the ground wire from the regulator? Your volt meter should also be connected to this point.

TooManyXS1Bs already mentioned it but probing it with an oscilloscope would probably reveal the cause of your issue. Short of that, try putting an ammeter in line with the output of the regulator. How much current is that headlight pulling? Hook up a battery and check the voltage and current again. If the alternator can't supply more than that, then no amount of capacitors will help you.

 

[hooser]

Ah, but you forgot the third [and most likely] scenario; the battery dies and the bike won't start. With a PMA you could unplug the battery and fire it up with the kick starter. With the stock alternator you would need to get a jump start.

Why bother to swap? A PMA gives you the option of running with or without a battery. I personally don't like batteries. There are already too many damn batteries that I have to take care of. If there is any way that I can avoid them, I do. If you want to run a battery as a backup then that works too. In my experience, a [good] PMA is far more reliable than a battery.

Oh, and a little tip for guys running without a battery. If the alternator does crap out on you, there is no need to call a bro with a truck. You can unplug the headlight and plug an auxiliary battery pack into the headlight socket. If you are going on an extended trip, keep one in the tool kit. Didn't bring one? Find a convenience store and buy some D-cells and tape. Where there's a will there's a way.

As much as I enjoy discussing the virtues of charging systems, it's really not relevant to the original question.

My first thought on issues like this is always GROUND. It's gets overlooked all the time because it's rarely drawn out on the diagram, just that cool little triangle symbol. Any current that goes through the positive side has to also go through the ground path. You mentioned that you tried running a ground wire from the headlight to the frame. Have you tried connecting it directly to the ground wire from the regulator? Your volt meter should also be connected to this point.

TooManyXS1Bs already mentioned it but probing it with an oscilloscope would probably reveal the cause of your issue. Short of that, try putting an ammeter in line with the output of the regulator. How much current is that headlight pulling? Hook up a battery and check the voltage and current again. If the alternator can't supply more than that, then no amount of capacitors will help you.

mrriggs.. very good, especially the checking the current out of the regulator and checking grounds..a ground that is for your headlight may not go completely open, it may have or develop a high resistance to ground (like though powder coating on paint) which would make the current draw though the regulator go higher then it was designed for making it get over heated and shorting out the regulator.

 

[retiredgentleman]

mrriggs...................its no surprise to me that you have had many years of good service from a PMA system. That's because you use Japanese designed and made parts, and not the Chinese/Taiwan sub standard parts being sold by many aftermarket sellers.
hooser................I would like to see someone on this site buy the German PMA/cdi unit you sell, and do a follow up thread on it after a year or 2 to prove out it's reliability. I suspect its a very good product. I've just never heard any unbiased reports on it.
I know the Germans are good engineers and build high quality parts.

These PMA failure stories seem to happen on a regular basis, and everyone has a possible explanation...........bad grounds, or maybe bad capacitors, or maybe bad soldering on the wiring from the stator to the regulator.Everyone is grasping at straws, when the real problem is simply badly designed and poor quality parts from Taiwan. What I find amazing, is that a buyer will find he has a defective part, and say things like "It could have just been a bad batch".

 

[hooser]

mrriggs...................its no surprise to me that you have had many years of good service from a PMA system. That's because you use Japanese designed and made parts, and not the Chinese/Taiwan sub standard parts being sold by many aftermarket sellers.
hooser................I would like to see someone on this site buy the German PMA/cdi unit you sell, and do a follow up thread on it after a year or 2 to prove out it's reliability. I suspect its a very good product. I've just never heard any unbiased reports on it.
I know the Germans are good engineers and build high quality parts.

These PMA failure stories seem to happen on a regular basis, and everyone has a possible explanation...........bad grounds, or maybe bad capacitors, or maybe bad soldering on the wiring from the stator to the regulator.Everyone is grasping at straws, when the real problem is simply badly designed and poor quality parts from Taiwan. What I find amazing, is that a buyer will find he has a defective part, and say things like "It could have just been a bad batch".

Retired you may be right, but what I would like to find is the problem for sure with tests and to be sure it is junk. To do so here are trouble shooting steps I would take. Be sure to add more if you or any one else has idea's to trouble shoot not just guess. There were some early in this thread then it got off course .

A) You can just connect you headlight directly across the + and - of the regulator, not having any thing else like the caps connected. if then voltage goes down (and does not increase (or light get brighter then) bad regulator probably but outside chance the pma is bad. Find out what the output of the PMA is suppose to be. I Don't know what the output of the PMA on these should be so I will stop there. But it will vari with rpm's "I do on the powerdynmo(German made)" Have to put a plug for my friends" Other steps below..

1) Voltage at the output of the regulator with the lights off (if ok go to step 2)

2) turn on lights what happens.. while monitoring the voltage at the output of the regulator if it goes down. go to 3

3) remove the caps, and have your lights connected to the output of the regulator..is the voltage ok, bad caps or caps wired wrong. if it goes down go to 4)

4) reconnect the caps.. disconnect your light circuit.. and check for direct shorts in the positive to ground wire if not check for ground wires to chassis. if nether go back to step 4 you might have missed something. Still can't find anything go to step 5.

5) . You can just connect you headlight directly across the + and - of the regulator, if then voltage goes down(and does not increase or light get brighter as the rpms increase , bad regulator probably but outside change the pma is bad. Find out what the output of the PMA is suppose to be. Don't know what the output of the PMA on these should be I do on the powerdynmo. But it will vary with rpm . Hope this helps. Gary
This may also help it is from the powerdynamo site: http://www.powerdynamo.biz/eng/kb/reg_output.htm

 

[650Skull]

A "Pamco Inition System" thread. http://www.xs650.com/threads/pamco-ignition.46859/

 

[hooser]

A Pamco thread. http://www.xs650.com/threads/pamco-ignition.46859/

650Skull I don't run the pamco but good information, I was thinking it would be handy to have a special place on the forum for MFG trouble shooting or Other trouble shooting help on the different ignition and electrical where it is just how to without getting into this system is junk ,no that one is. We someone can go and see how to test his stuff. Or even articles on stuff. where you just read only. Do you think that would work? Who could set that up? Maybe a separate column under garage , that could be easily accessed. Gary

 

[650Skull]

The "Pamco Ignition System" thread is a new information thread, although it doesn't have any relevance to this thread i posted it in here because there could be a lot of traffic on here. People could be looking at this thread when they are making up their mind or looking for information on PMA systems, and any exposure will help to get this thread on the map. If you didn't know about through here then who knows when you would. If you look it is already half way down page 2.

It has been put in the "Tech Menu".

The "Pamco Ignition System" thread is not a PMA thread but it has a section referenced for the Pamco, Pamco/E-Advance, coupled with a PMA and PMA/Cap, because there are a lot of problems arising from the installation and combining of the 2 systems ..................The problems are 99% due to people not understanding the correct procedure on how to install a Pamco, Pamco/E-Advance in conjunction with a PMA/Cap, and do not separate the ignition from the charging system when installing for testing purposes. This causes problems associated with electrical spikes, by the PMA and Capacitor system, and appear to be the main culprit to blown Pamco's

Not necessity to point out comparisons because the thread is designed to help people install the Pamco properly and trouble shoot using standard procedures and Q & A's, for those people who need other input to help them understand procedure, and or diagnose, other problems that may have arisen previously.

I saw a need and done something about it. Nothing to stop yourself to do the same for your combined PMA/CDI system

 

[hooser]

The "Pamco Ignition System" thread is a new information thread, although it doesn't have any relevance to this thread i posted it in here because there could be a lot of traffic on here. People could be looking at this thread when they are making up their mind or looking for information on PMA systems, and any exposure will help to get this thread on the map. If you didn't know about through here then who knows when you would. If you look it is already half way down page 2.

It has been put in the "Tech Menu".

The "Pamco Ignition System" thread is not a PMA thread but it has a section referenced for the Pamco, Pamco/E-Advance, coupled with a PMA and PMA/Cap, because there are a lot of problems arising from the installation and combining of the 2 systems ..................The problems are 99% due to people not understanding the correct procedure on how to install a Pamco, Pamco/E-Advance in conjunction with a PMA/Cap, and do not separate the ignition from the charging system when installing for testing purposes. This causes problems associated with electrical spikes, by the PMA and Capacitor system, and appear to be the main culprit to blown Pamco's

Not necessity to point out comparisons because the thread is designed to help people install the Pamco properly and trouble shoot using standard procedures and Q & A's, for those people who need other input to help them understand procedure, and or diagnose, other problems that may have arisen previously.

I saw a need and done something about it. Nothing to stop yourself to do the same for your combined PMA/CDI system

Thanks, good idea.Gary

 

[retiredgentleman]

Here's another thread with 3 months gone by and no end to the story. Hyperballsmcgee......................we need an update as to how things are working with your electrics.

 

[Hyperballsmcgee]

sorry for not closing this out. weak regulators were the issue. I now run a mosfet regulator rectifier for a Harley Dyna and have had no issues

 

[retiredgentleman]

sorry for not closing this out. weak regulators were the issue. I now run a mosfet regulator rectifier for a Harley Dyna and have had no issues

Thanks for completing the story.
I would like to know a few more details. Does this mean you are now running the HHB stator/rotor and the CDI, with the addition of the Harley rec/reg unit?
Did HHB offer any explanation as to why 2 of their rec/reg units failed? Did you have to pay for only the first rec/reg? Did they offer to sell or give you a 3rd rec/reg, or did you just tell them you were buying from another source?

What manufacturer makes the Harley rec/reg (i.e. is it Japanese)? What was the cost of the Harley rec/reg?

Quite a few questions, but there are others having the same problems, and this information could be very useful in helping them sort things out.

 

[Hyperballsmcgee]

hugh is actually the one who sent me the dyna regulator. i believe it is from RM Stator. i was not given an explanation other than he has been testing with the dyna regulators and they seem to hold up better, so I will offer my own explanation The CDI system different state than the PMA. The CDI actually uses for source coils off of the stator to fire the ignition. This in theory offers what I call a roadside feature where, as what has happened to me in the past, should any component of the charging system fail you still have your ignition to power the bike to get it home or to the shop etc. perhaps the single phase regulator that comes in his kit is simply too weak for the CDI stator

 

[Hyperballsmcgee]

hugh has been very helpful with his warranty as well as testing and diagnostics and has not done anything to try and get out of sending the replacement parts

 

[retiredgentleman]

hugh has been very helpful with his warranty as well as testing and diagnostics and has not done anything to try and get out of sending the replacement parts

Did his warranty cover all of the replacement parts? In other words, you have only paid for the original cost of the kit, and the 2 replacement rec/reg units were supplied at no cost to you?

 

[Hyperballsmcgee]

yes i have only paid for my original kit