CDI style ignition

[T-Sox]

So I have been looking into the Banshee PMA swap and thinking about a Pamco ignition for my bike. I'll admit I'm not the sharpest knife when it comes to electronics so bare with me.

The Banshee flywheel and stator has a pickup signal coil on it. This tells the plugs when to fire based on the flywheel position. The stator has the magnet that triggers the firing through the CDI. This is the same as a Pamco only better IMO. Why couldn't you leave the pickup coil, run it into the correct CDI for ignition? Basically stealing the complete system from a Banshee (like the one linked below) it should work if you can get the timing right. It may require a new keyway groove in the flywheel depending on where the pickup would need to be in the case but the backing plate in the kit below is adjustable to it could be fine tuned.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kit-Stator-...ash=item3ac98d7151:g:yq0AAOSwhOdXpOE3&vxp=mtr

Am I wrong or am I wrong?

 

[Signal]

I have had a similar thought, I am not an expert just a bumbler bashing my way slowly ahead.

Some things to think about, two stroke CDI’s retard at high RPM to prevent detonation.

You need a 4 stroke CDI with an advance to 35 degrees max for a race engine, retard at start to prevent kick back.

CDI’s come in AC and DC types AC ones are powered from a coil in the stator DC ones are powered from a battery.

I have had an experimental 277 rephased crank triggered CDI system running but it needs more work. Your idea is definitely doable but to be honest I have struggled with this
Here are some links I found useful.

https://www.ooracing.com/store/cdi-...-madass-125-late-50-s-with-speed-control.html.
https://www.ooracing.com/store/cdi-plug-4-or-5-pin-ignition-plug.html
http://www.scootnfast.com/Madass/Wiring.htm

 

[T-Sox]

Well it would seem I'm a little late to the party..... it's been done,

http://www.hughshandbuilt.com/2016/05/02/hhbs-new-charging-systemignition-combo-and-more/

I should have spent more time looking on Google.

I got to be honest. I'd love to have it but that price is hard to justify. Not saying they're ripping anyone off or anything. It takes time and energy to make something like this work. I just can't see it for $150-$200 in parts and that's retail.

There has to be a way to make this work with minimal cost. There are soo many low cost CDI systems out there now.

It looks from the pictures like they did have to cut

 

[650Skull]

That is not a Banshee swap.

Gary from "Hoose Racing" has been promoting and selling those PMA/CDI kits for years and Hugh has just jumped on board with his. Hugh has no instructions or wiring diagram and is sending his buyers on here for information on "How To" yet....................

 

[hooser]

That is not a Banshee swap.

Gary from "Hoose Racing" has been promoting and selling those PMA/CDI kits for years and Hugh has just jumped on board with his. Hugh has no instructions or wiring diagram and is sending his buyers on here for information on "How To" yet....................

Skull thanks, Gary

 

[T-Sox]

Wow, how did I not find that. The Hoose Racing kit looks much nicer IMO.

I know "how" a CDI ignition works but I don't know "why" it works if that makes sense.

With all the people on here smarter than me, I think we could get this done. I'd be willing to get a bunch of the flywheels, get them cut and sell them cheap to help everyone out. I know a couple good machinists.

 

[hooser]

They used the banshee in the 70's later we tried Suzuki's, A friend who I help with many used on his BSA and my 250 until it quite then we went to PVL for racing. Never had one fail and on the 650,500 and BSA 250, if you want more info for your reseach go to www.powerdynamo.biz, Good luck on your interprise, gary

Also it is Hoos , thanks Gary

 

[650Skull]

If cost is an issue or consideration, why change to a PMA/CDI combined system?

Original charging system, if working, can be reliable, and if it is not charging properly it can be a cheaper option to repair than replace. The factory Electronic ignition, (TCI), if working is a no maintenance system.

 

[Signal]

I am aware of the other options. The power dynamo 277 in NZ after taxes freight etc is getting close to NZ $1000. Hugh does not make a 277. I need an alternator to run the fuel pump and charge the battery for the electric start.
The issue is cost, reliability and delivery time. I have not had much success with off the shelf ignitions having had 3 fail (1 Pamco, and 2 Probe). The Probe are nice units I have bought 3 all with long lead times between purchase and use. The first continues to perform perfectly, the second has developed a fault when warm, the third had a high speed miss out of the box. I know it is the ignition's by swapping a known good system for a suspect one. No chance of a claim Probe is history.
My options as I see it are either make my own and a spare to take to the track, or stump up the money for the power dynamo and hope I can get spares before the next meeting if it becomes faulty.
So far as the price of the Power dynamo and Hugh's sytems being fair, yes I think it is. I have at least 40 hours of my "spare" time sunk into trying to get a unit running.

 

[hooser]

I am aware of the other options. The power dynamo 277 in NZ after taxes freight etc is getting close to NZ $1000. Hugh does not make a 277. I need an alternator to run the fuel pump and charge the battery for the electric start.
The issue is cost, reliability and delivery time. I have not had much success with off the shelf ignitions having had 3 fail (1 Pamco, and 2 Probe). The Probe are nice units I have bought 3 all with long lead times between purchase and use. The first continues to perform perfectly, the second has developed a fault when warm, the third had a high speed miss out of the box. I know it is the ignition's by swapping a known good system for a suspect one. No chance of a claim Probe is history.
My options as I see it are either make my own and a spare to take to the track, or stump up the money for the power dynamo and hope I can get spares before the next meeting if it becomes faulty.
So far as the price of the Power dynamo and Hugh's sytems being fair, yes I think it is. I have at least 40 hours of my "spare" time sunk into trying to get a unit running.

Email me and I should be able to save on the power dynamo, I have shipped your way before. I will check on shipping. Gary

 

[T-Sox]

I would hardly call a TCI system no maintenance. They work when tuned well but let one part fail and it's going to cost you. There is a reason no one uses them any more. Reliability, low part replacement and and ease of finding replacement parts are my main attractions.

As far as the kits being fair, I would also agree. I'm sure it took a lot of man hours to find what works and put it all together. If I had the extra cash, I'd probably pay it. Unfortunately I'm getting ready to break ground on a new house so money is tight. Sometimes it's harder for me to find an extra $500 than it is to find $50, 10 times if that makes sense to anyone but me.

Plus, the tinkering is a big part of the fun for me

I hope I'm not stepping on toes bringing this up. For the average backyard builder, I would say it's best to just buy a kit, but I like to do things the hard way

 

[T-Sox]

Gary,
Lots of good info in that link.

I just want to say I'm not looking to steal anyone's business or even make money on this. I just think it would be cool to be able to piece something together with readily available parts.

 

[Signal]

Gary thank you for your offer, I will send you a PM. I will be seeing a friend with the exact same problem this weekend.

T-Sox here what I have done. The charging system is a pit bike rotor and ZXR 250 stator. The rotor is fitted to the XS tapered shaft from a dead XS rotor. A plate was made to hold the ZXR stator. This all works fine.

Next an adjustable ring was made to mount the pickup coils. The pickup coils are displaced 83 degrees. The tricky part was locating the sender bump on the rotor with relation to the key so that the pickups have at least some show of being under the alternator cover. As you can see from the photos on the prototype I have had at least 2 attempts at getting this right and the cover still does not fit.

The pickups are from a KR1 250, the coils are cheap pit bike ones the CDI’s are DC from the link I posted above. I am looking for another source of pickups. When this is working next is to make an ignition using AC CDI’s with 2 exciter and 1 charging coil from pit bikes.

My reasoning is that by using cheap readily available parts I can have a complete spare ignition system to take to meetings. If we have problems during the day the whole system can be replaced between races and the weekend is not a washout.

It goes against my instincts to buy inferior parts for racing but to date expensive units has not proved worthwhile. By the way I do not consider Pamco an expensive unit.


Skull is correct in his comment if you have a working system go with it. Do not under estimate how much work is involved in this and if you need to pay a machinist it will not be cheaper than an off the shelf unit. Attached are some photos that may help.

 

[hooser]

If cost is an issue or consideration, why change to a PMA/CDI combined system?

Original charging system, if working, can be reliable, and if it is not charging properly it can be a cheaper option to repair than replace. The factory Electronic ignition, (TCI), if working is a no maintenance system.[/
I agree

Gary,
Lots of good info in that link.

I just want to say I'm not looking to steal anyone's business or even make money on this. I just think it would be cool to be able to piece something together with readily available parts.

I don't think anyone is worried about you stealing anyones business as you will find out (as I did ) it can be done but not always easy. I think it was a RM Susuzki we used on the 250 BSA, If you have time and don't mind working on them it can be fun, that is where I forget sometimes on this site is guy's like experimenting. Me not so much anymore. I guess never really liked to experiment that much, so when I find something that works It is hard for me to change. Good luck.

 

[T-Sox]

Signal,
you might want to look for an internal pickup stator. They do exist but finding one with the 277* offset you need might prove tricky.

I'm not looking to rephase so in theory it would make it a lot easier. In practice probably not too much

Thanks for the info Hooser!

This looks interesting too,

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-465D_-_Stator_Kit.html#SID=710

 

[figure8]

Two things, Gary at Hoos is a great guy.

Just to clarify I'm almost certain Hugh sends instructions with his CDI, I know a guy who has the kit as his bike runs just fine. I think Hugh just hasn't posted the instructions online yet.

 

[mrriggs]

It shouldn't be that hard to put one together with junk yard parts; Banshee rotor and stator, Honda CDI, Toyota ignition pickup. I was pursuing it years ago before settling on the PMA and HEI combo [which is still going strong]. http://xs650temp.proboards.com/thread/3369/yamaha-banshee-magneto-swap

 

[T-Sox]

Mrriggs, I read through your whole thread. The distributer mod is very interesting. I'm just thinking the pickup is there, why not use it? Those kits just prove it's possible. Plus, you wouldn't have to worry about cam chain slack effecting your timing.

I need to do something anyhow. My XS came running but the charging system is shot. It will kill a new battery sitting overnight so it must have a dead short somewhere.

So after a lot of reading and head scratching I think I'm going to try it out. It will be a while till I get there. I just pulled the motor out and I plan on a rebuild before I put it back. I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions especially when it comes time to wire it up.

I'd like to post up my plan here and get lots of input before the time comes so here goes...
So my plan of action as of right now is;
High output Banshee stator (100 watts) with everything to go with it. Bracket, pickup coil, rectifier, and flywheel. The flywheel will most likely need a rephase to get the trigger in the right spot.

I'm thinking about a CDI from a high output pitbike. I have used this one before on a points conversion and I like the adjustable timing to get everything dialed in if the mechanical side should be a little off.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/GY6-Series-Hi...ooter-Moped-/141926463847?nav=WATCHING_ACTIVE

 

[retiredgentleman]

quote;
"but the charging system is shot. It will kill a new battery sitting overnight so it must have a dead short somewhere."

If your battery is discharging that fast, it means you have problems on the wiring or various loads on the bike. That is not related to the charging system.....................the charging system is not working while the bike is sitting over night. The charging system may be working 100%.

 

[mrriggs]

I'm just thinking the pickup is there, why not use it?

The Banshee crank trigger fires at 180°. To make it work on a stock XS, you would need to machine off one of the "teeth" on the OD of the rotor so it will fire at 360°. You would then need to re-balance the rotor. Of course, if you were using an aftermarket rotor then it probably wasn't balanced in the first place so it wouldn't make much difference.

A re-phase would require machining off one tooth on the OD of the rotor and adding a second pickup, module and coil. The stator may not supply enough power to energize two separate modules.

Triggering off of the cam simplifies things and would allow you to use a single module and coil for a re-phase.