Cylinder head washers

[5twins]

The original rubber/metal washers do seal the oil in but don't hold the torque. Your 4 outside acorn nuts will constantly come loose. That's why many, if not most, untouched 650s you see have leaky head gaskets. You can use those rubber washers if you like and don't mind re-torquing several times a season.

 

[Leslie]

Addict,
you should be able to use your copper washers several times unless they are cracked/fractured.

Just heat them for several minutes in water from cool, or if you have a oil bath get them in there.

let them cool down naturally till they reach the ambient temp of the room you are annealing/ heating up them in wipe over job done...

Leslie

 

[cros36]

The original rubber/metal washers do seal the oil in but don't hold the torque. Your 4 outside acorn nuts will constantly come loose. That's why many, if not most, untouched 650s you see have leaky head gaskets. You can use those rubber washers if you like and don't mind re-torquing several times a season.

alright. thanks for the info. i noticed the other day that my local true value has copper washers, ill be checking to see if they have same size. not sure they will have any with that thickness. do you think that if they had the correct OD and ID but in a thinner washer, it would be alright to put them on top of the rubber/metal washer. maybe i am just being too effin cheap.

 

[5twins]

The point is to eliminate the rubber washer. Putting a copper one on top won't do anything, the nuts will still come loose. Yes, you're being cheap. Skip the 6 pack tonight and buy 4 washers from a Suzuki shop instead. They'll last for years, the beer will get pissed out in a few hours, lol.

 

[YL82]

This thread is over a year old, but here goes:

I have a new set of MikesXS cylinder head sealing washers with the rubber. I now have no plans to install them after what I've read. I recall having to peel off the old rubber ones (probably originals).

Copper alternatives exist from MikesXS (#01-0651) and from 650Central (#KCEN98-0144).

Should I still go with the Suzuki washers which I'm sure I can pick up from local shop and not have to pay high shipping charges.? Any compelling reasons to go with either MikeXS copper head washers or 650Central's copper head stud sealing washers? They may be the same item.

Thanks!

 

[5twins]

The ones from Mike's aren't copper, they're brass or bronze. I've heard copper is better for this application. I used the Suzuki ones only because at the time, Mike's didn't sell his brass ones yet. I have now used the Mike's brass ones too and had no problems to date. I guess whatever is cheaper for you will work fine. If the Mike's washers plus shipping are going to cost you more than going to a Suzuki shop, go to the Suzuki shop.

 

[YL82]

Yep - my bad. MikesXS are indeed brass and not copper. I think I'll go with copper.

For me, it looks to be a toss up on pricing whether its ordering locally and paying 9.75% TN sales tax and paying $3.25 each for the Suzuki washer vs. ordering from Partzilla and paying $2.17 per Suzuki gasket with moderate USPS shipping. I like Partzilla's prices and fast shipping to me from Albany, Georgia.

Thanks.

 

[xjwmx]

Let's not talk theory, gents. I've used copper washers on the outer studs for years and have installed them on several motors. They've worked. Maybe yamasarus has assembled more of these motors than I have and knows something about it that I don't?

Mike's is the only place I've ever seen brass washers sold for oil sealing applications. Think there might be a reason for that?

Mike's brass washers seal perfectly well. Plain steel ones probably would too. You won't find any brass as soft as some copper. There is some copper you can dent with a fingernail.

Let's not talk theory, gents.

Nobody knows anything except you.

 

[YL82]

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating brass over copper or vice versa!

For those who prefer thick Brass washers and don't wish to stack em', the ones I just received from McMaster Carr appear to be good alternatives to the MikesXS product (#01-0651) from both a specification and cost standpoint.

They come in packs of 5. $9.42/pack.

PN: 95395A240, OD: 7/8", ID: 13/32", Thickness: 0.11" - 0.14"

With $6.25 shipping to east TN, I paid a total of $25.09 for 2 packs (10) of these.

If you order 8 (yes, you may only need 4 for outer studs!) from MikesXS, this will cost you $23.60. UPS Shipping these to east TN costs $14.39 for a total of $37.99.

The McMaster Carr brass washers (fit nicely around 10mm threads).

I measured 5 of McMaster Carr brass washers (w/Mitutoyo Digital Caliper):

OD: 22.13 mm
ID: 10.32 mm
Thickness: 3.21 mm

I have never ordered MikesXS brass washers. I just installed an 8-pack of Suzuki Copper Washers (#09168-10017) atop one of my C's cylinder head. Plan to install these brass ones on my other C. The Suzuki's torqued to 30 ft-lbs. just fine. They measured at ~2.4 mm thickness as I recall (going off of memory).

Gee, there's a bunch of threads on this topic! None that mention the McMaster Carr option to my knowledge.....

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24086&highlight=brass+sealing+washers

 

[Rambo Rob]

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating brass over copper or vice versa!

For those who prefer thick Brass washers and don't wish to stack em', the ones I just received from McMaster Carr appear to be good alternatives to the MikesXS product (#01-0651) from both a specification and cost standpoint.

They come in packs of 5. $9.42/pack.

PN: 95395A240, OD: 7/8", ID: 13/32", Thickness: 0.11" - 0.14"

With $6.25 shipping to east TN, I paid a total of $25.09 for 2 packs (10) of these.

If you order 8 (yes, you may only need 4 for outer studs!) from MikesXS, this will cost you $23.60. UPS Shipping these to east TN costs $14.39 for a total of $37.99.

The McMaster Carr brass washers (fit nicely around 10mm threads).

I measured 5 of McMaster Carr brass washers (w/Mitutoyo Digital Caliper):

OD: 22.13 mm
ID: 10.32 mm
Thickness: 3.21 mm

I have never ordered MikesXS brass washers. I just installed an 8-pack of Suzuki Copper Washers (#09168-10017) atop one of my C's cylinder head. Plan to install these brass ones on my other C. The Suzuki's torqued to 30 ft-lbs. just fine. They measured at ~2.4 mm thickness as I recall (going off of memory).

Gee, there's a bunch of threads on this topic! None that mention the McMaster Carr option to my knowledge.....

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24086&highlight=brass+sealing+washers

 

[Rambo Rob]

When using either type washers as a replacement.
Is this the correct method to retorque the head.
Using the tightening sequence, first remove #1 nut and washer replace with new washer add anti seize to the bolt thread and torque to say 20 ft lbs. Then continue on to #2 thru to 8 using the tightening sequence until all eight are done. Then go back to #1 and torque to 27 ft lbs and then #2 and #3 etc until all 8 are done.

 

[5twins]

Since you're only removing/replacing one at a time, I don't think it really matters which one you do first or whether or not you follow the torque pattern. That pattern is mainly for a fresh install of the head where all the fasteners are loose to start with. Also, only the 4 outside washers need replacing, the rubber/steel ones. The inner 4 are just plain steel washers and can be re-used. Yes, do pull those nuts so you can clean and lube the threads, but there's no need to replace the washers. Also pull, clean, and lube the two smaller bolts under the spark plugs. They're part of the fastener group that seals the head gasket. Also, there is one small M6 bolt at the back, between the carbs. It's very difficult to get a torque wrench on because the engine breather is right above it. Most of us just gently check/tighten it with a wrench.

 

[Rambo Rob]

Since you're only removing/replacing one at a time, I don't think it really matters which one you do first or whether or not you follow the torque pattern. That pattern is mainly for a fresh install of the head where all the fasteners are loose to start with. Also, only the 4 outside washers need replacing, the rubber/steel ones. The inner 4 are just plain steel washers and can be re-used. Yes, do pull those nuts so you can clean and lube the threads, but there's no need to replace the washers. Also pull, clean, and lube the two smaller bolts under the spark plugs. They're part of the fastener group that seals the head gasket. Also, there is one small M6 bolt at the back, between the carbs. It's very difficult to get a torque wrench on because the engine breather is right above it. Most of us just gently check/tighten it with a wrench.

Great:
That's the best answer I have received. I have two 650s to retorque. a 1972 and a 1981.
When tightening the nuts should I do all at 20 ft lbs and then go back around and tighten to 27 ftlbs?-

 

[5twins]

I bring each one right up to 27 as I'm going along. But 1st, I check all 8 to make sure they're at least at 25 or so. The 4 outside ones with the rubber washers are sometimes pretty loose. And I three step up to the 27 on each one (about 20, 23, 27).

 

[Rambo Rob]

For the outer four steel rubber washers is it better to use brass washers to replace them, or go with new rubber steel?

 

[5twins]

Use brass or copper ones to replace them unless you want to be re-tightening them all the time. The rubber washer doesn't allow the nut to stay tight, it's too soft. The copper or brass is soft enough to seal the oil in but hard enough to hold the nut tight.

 

[Rambo Rob]

For the outer four steel rubber washers is it better to use brass washers to replace them, or go with new rubber steel?

Thanks
Not looking forward to it, hate torque wrenches, I can just imagine twisting a nut off, But sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.