weaselbeak
XS650 Junkie
Darn funny that you ride an XS650 and the most common question you hear?....is that a Triumph? No, they are not the same, yes they look a lot alike, how close up be damned.
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Difference between xj650 and xs650 and avaibility of pieces?
- Thread starter T-Bolt
- Start date
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- Tags
- build engine non-xs650 restoration
Yep, txxs, I've heard that yarn too; but it doesn't explain away the fact that the XS650 engine design has a strong resemblance to the Horex twin, and absolutely no resemblance to any Yamaha in-house 4-stroke design. I don't think Mama Yama wanted to admit that the baby's daddy was an early 50's German bike; retro just wasn't stylish right then.
txxs
XS650 Addict
Thanks for your views grizld1.
However I don't see the strong technology resemblance that you mention.
It was the first four stroke motorcycle from Yamaha however Yamaha had already developed a lot of four stroke technology for Nissan and Toyota throughout the 1960's. The XS1 project did not start until 1967. They did not have to rely on 1950's technology when they already had superior technology.
I'm sure they copied a few things from Horex and others as well (everybody copies everybody) but that does make it a latter-day Horex.
It may or may not be a yarn but the technology of the Toyota 2000GT (and some of the Yamaha YR1) is there for all to see.
All you need to do to see what I'm talking about is to put an XS650 motor beside a TX750 twin, XS360 twin, XS500 twin, SR/XT500 single, etc. on the bench and start taking them apart. You'll see many points of family resemblance in all but one of them. I don't know which design group at Yamaha did what, but engineers experienced in 4-stroke design would not have stuck 2-stroke style caged needle bearings in the small end of the connecting rods in the first run of XS1's! The 650 twin did not in any way reflect state of the art engineering when it was rolled out.
Stoop22kid
XS650 Addict
I have an xj550 and the guys over at xjbikes.com are extremely knowledgable. If I'm not mistaken the xj650 is a shaft driven bike. I haven't looked at the xj650 much but I know that I have had to fab almost all of my own stuff for my 550 because no one makes bobber/chopper parts for it.
Stoop22kid
XS650 Addict
I have an xj550 and the guys over at xjbikes.com are extremely knowledgable. If I'm not mistaken the xj650 is a shaft driven bike. I haven't looked at the xj650 much but I know that I have had to fab almost all of my own stuff for my 550 because no one makes bobber/chopper parts for it.
txxs
XS650 Addict
I am only questioning the alleged connection with the Horex / Hosk.
Where is the major Horex connection that you previously mentioned?
So far I have not seen any overwhelming evidence.
This is a democracy and a person has the right to question rather than be forced to accept some story from the internet.
The fact that they initially used some 2-stroke influences seems to indicate they were not blindly copying Horex. The XS1 was their first 4 stroke motorcycle and the there were several thousand modifications during the prototype stages and early production stage (one of which was the small end needle bearings).
The TX750 comparison has nothing to do with the story.
I think I'm now becoming more inclined to believe the Yamaha "yarn" than the Horex "yarn".
First off, I'm not trying to "force" my opinion on you or anyone else, nor did I state that Yamaha was "blindly copying Horex;" of course Yamaha made their own contributions, and I doubt that the whole picture reduces to a matter of either/or. I'm not trying to be confrontational, but you asked about Horex connections and why I suspect that some of Yamaha's development stories are a bit exaggerated, so here are some major features of XS650 construction that are shared with the 500 Horex twin and are not shared by any of Yamaha's in-house designed motors.
1. Camshaft driven ignition (Yam ignitions are crank driven).
2. Sump plate on bottom of engine housing brass strainer, second brass strainer in right engine cover (Yam uses paper cartridge or spin-on filter).
3. Oil pump in right engine cover (Yam houses the oil pump in the crankcase).
4. Camshaft retained by rocker cover on ball bearings, rocker cover retained by head and cylinder fasteners (Yam secures the camshaft with plain bearing pillow box retainers with fasteners separate from those securing the head, rocker cover fasteners are separate from camshaft and head/cylinder fasteners).
5. Pressed on camshaft sprocket (Yam uses bolt-on sprockets).
6. Absence of crankshaft balancer.
None of these differences reflect post-1968 tech advances, but some would have required time to design and produce and increased production costs.
The TX750 is only one example. Many features are shared by all of Yamaha's known in-house designs that contrast sharply with the XS650 motor, but not with the Horex 500.
1. Camshaft driven ignition (Yam ignitions are crank driven).
2. Sump plate on bottom of engine housing brass strainer, second brass strainer in right engine cover (Yam uses paper cartridge or spin-on filter).
3. Oil pump in right engine cover (Yam houses the oil pump in the crankcase).
4. Camshaft retained by rocker cover on ball bearings, rocker cover retained by head and cylinder fasteners (Yam secures the camshaft with plain bearing pillow box retainers with fasteners separate from those securing the head, rocker cover fasteners are separate from camshaft and head/cylinder fasteners).
5. Pressed on camshaft sprocket (Yam uses bolt-on sprockets).
6. Absence of crankshaft balancer.
None of these differences reflect post-1968 tech advances, but some would have required time to design and produce and increased production costs.
The TX750 is only one example. Many features are shared by all of Yamaha's known in-house designs that contrast sharply with the XS650 motor, but not with the Horex 500.
jbenedict
Yamadog Owner
Suzuki made a 650 vertical twin from 83 to 89. It was DOHC and was called the "Tempter"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_GR650_Tempter
Suzuki also had a 650 single called the "Savage". Seems it was popular with the "first bike" set and some did a few mods.
http://www.suzukisavage.com
I've heard both the Horex connection and the Toyota 2000GT connection. I read about the Toyota from the front of a factory XS manual. There is very little that is truly new in any m/c engine design just so we have a lot to argue about in the bar.
Here's a write up that describes the development of the XS1 which was written by a European distributor and makes a case for the Toyota origins:
http://www.classicyams.com/4-stroke/4-stroke/yamaha-xs1-development-story.html
My 77D tank sure has the shape and look of a Bonneville and the general impression is much like the Triumph. Inside the motor, I think the roller bearing crank is a really important improvement over all of the vertical twins that were already on the market. Yes, it is more expensive to rebuild a roller bearing crank than a shell bearing crank but, unless you are a dodo who never checks or changes the oil, the roller bearing crank won't need to be rebuilt.
Did any one red the information in the link i posted................errrrrrrrrrr no.................Explains a lot and Horex is a German bike manufacturer that is still in production today.
Yamaha bought out Showa who had bought out Hosk and the Hosk 500 is explained as an oriental version of the Horex at the time, by a hosk engineer. The same engineers,( Now Showa), who made a version of the Horex 500 also made a 650 version before it was sold to Yamaha.
Maybe Yamaha decided to use the Toyota pistons, already in production it would have made economic sense to use them so they wouldn't have to remold or tool.
This would explain why the XS650 is so different to the other XS/TX/SR/XT bike motors produced by Yamaha, especially if they used the same basic design for the XS650, the Showa engineers had made. Why reinvent when you have the plans in front of you, especially since the hosk 500 was a proven race performer
This article was translated by me, (Google translator), and was found on a Euro XS650 club site. Can't remember if it was posted on the site or linked from them.
Yamaha bought out Showa who had bought out Hosk and the Hosk 500 is explained as an oriental version of the Horex at the time, by a hosk engineer. The same engineers,( Now Showa), who made a version of the Horex 500 also made a 650 version before it was sold to Yamaha.
Maybe Yamaha decided to use the Toyota pistons, already in production it would have made economic sense to use them so they wouldn't have to remold or tool.
This would explain why the XS650 is so different to the other XS/TX/SR/XT bike motors produced by Yamaha, especially if they used the same basic design for the XS650, the Showa engineers had made. Why reinvent when you have the plans in front of you, especially since the hosk 500 was a proven race performer
This article was translated by me, (Google translator), and was found on a Euro XS650 club site. Can't remember if it was posted on the site or linked from them.
I've always noticed the uncanny resemblance to the Honda CB-350, and wondered if there may have been some corporate espionage going on over there...
txxs
XS650 Addict
I'm a simple person who likes to see the facts.
If you stand back and look at a Yamaha YR1 crankshaft you can see the resemblance with the XS650 with its pressed together cranks and four bearings, generator on the left end etc. (incidentally that's where they copied the problem con-rod small end needles from, but I digress).
Please show me the resemblance to the crankshaft on the Horex.
Similarly with the transmission and clutch. Very similar layout.
Ditto with the horizontally split crankcase. Looking at the YR1 crankcases it is hard not to notice a some resemblance with the XS650.
The lack of crankshaft balancer on the XS650 does not justify anything as none of the 4-stroke twins at that time had a balancer. That was mainly developed and refined in the 70's (mainly by Yamaha in-house on the TX750 & TX500).
The fact that many features on later Yamaha twins are different to the XS650 is no different the the fact that many features on later Hondas are different to earlier Hondas.
A lot of the layout of the XS1 engine appears to be inspired by the YR1 layout and the Toyota 2000GT development work. There is also some resemblance in various ways to the Horex / Hosk top end but equally the same can be said of resemblance to various things on 4-stroke Honda twins.
The Horex "story" has been copied an proliferated all over the internet. That does not mean it has to be taken as gospel (although parts of it are correct).
txxs
XS650 Addict
I've always noticed the uncanny resemblance to the Honda CB-350, and wondered if there may have been some corporate espionage going on over there...
Maybe someone in Honda was on the payroll as well?
Nah, you all got it wrong! It looks like a Matchless.
First time I dropped by a Yamaha dealer and got my first sight of an XS650 I asked the salesman, Where did you get the Matchless?
It's not a Matchless, sir; it's the last of the XS650s.
Yours for $2,400.
They even took my CB450 in trade although hindsight says I shoulda kept it and paid for the XS650 all in cash.
Note that the Matchless twins also had a center main bearing crankshaft although Yamaha did it far better.
About the Suzuki Savage? Nice lightweight low seat height low powered well mannered plonker. Ideal beginner's bike.
Although sadly mis-named. "Savage" it ain't.
Perhaps it was the Truth in Advertizing regulations that forced Suzuki to re-name it "Boulevard"?
First time I dropped by a Yamaha dealer and got my first sight of an XS650 I asked the salesman, Where did you get the Matchless?
It's not a Matchless, sir; it's the last of the XS650s.
Yours for $2,400.
They even took my CB450 in trade although hindsight says I shoulda kept it and paid for the XS650 all in cash.
Note that the Matchless twins also had a center main bearing crankshaft although Yamaha did it far better.
About the Suzuki Savage? Nice lightweight low seat height low powered well mannered plonker. Ideal beginner's bike.
Although sadly mis-named. "Savage" it ain't.
Perhaps it was the Truth in Advertizing regulations that forced Suzuki to re-name it "Boulevard"?
jbenedict
Yamadog Owner
I'm right and you're wrong.
Now that has been settled, let's have a beer. Who's buying?
Now that has been settled, let's have a beer. Who's buying?
I'll buy, have $2.84 in my pocket along with a piece of string yay long, 2 SS spoke nipples and an oil stain from putting my hand in there lol.
but on a serious note, I wanted to make a public apology to griz for being disrespectful and over reacting with some of my comments/remarks. I'm sorry griz.
thought about this most days since and considered letting the sleeping dog lie, also considered private messaging you but idk maybe what started here should end here how it started so.... griz, you have more years than me, more experience and knowledge and I respect that, I really do. I found it kinda funny you called me kid due to the fact that I'm anything but lol... but you are a lump older with more knowledge and experience so I give you that one
I'm sorry for being a bit of an ass with you.
It's OK, TLC; I get a little obnoxious myself over this particular issue. How anybody can see a resemblance to the XS650 in the Triumph, from the motor's rocker boxes down to the cases, let alone the bodywork, instrument and switch layout, exhaust, etc., is beyond me, and it annoys me every time I hear it; but at the end of the day what other folks see or don't see makes no difference, and other guys' perceptions are none of my business anyway.
