Electric Starter is intermittent — even after tightening wishbone spring

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

My electric starter sounded much like the bike in YouTube video link below (thanks, JohnnyAction). Mine did not chatter quite as long nor as often as the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MdD2goE84o

I did a lot of research here on XS650 Forum and did the following: I drained the oil. I removed the clutch as well as the electric starter gears. The gears on starter gear #4 were in excellent shape. I squeezed the starter gear spring clip and used a fish scale to test the lateral resistance. I got 6+ pounds of resistance. I reinstalled everything. Filled the oil — twice. I left the drain plug out the first time. (Editorial comment: SELDOM in this forum here have I seen the topic/thread named, "Reinstall drain plugs." Sheeze!)

Now, my electric starter sounds exactly like the video link above. In other words, it got worse.

Does anyone have a suggestion for what my next step should be. Don't hate me, but I'd like to keep the electric start on my almost exclusively stock XS650SE.

Thanks, in advance, for any comments you may have. — j.c.

 

[gggGary]

I listened to the video several times and I am not sure I hear anything wrong with that starter. But it is difficult to hear much clearly out of the typical video.

Does yours make the obvious gear skipping out grind/chatter that is "not rare" on the XS?
Have you checked your timing? Advanced timing can make the starter labor or stop. either miss-set points or something funky in the advance mechanism like a broken spring or sticky rod can advance the timing

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

gggGary, thanks for your quick reply.

On the video, JohnnyAction pushes starter button at times: 0.01, 0.03, 0.06, 0.08 seconds and the engine fails to start. Each of those start attempts, the starter just spins or chatters (pick the descriptive sound you'd use) and the engine does not start. I believe, although I have no deep understanding of this, it sounds like the starter is spinning but the engine is not.

At about the 0.11 time mark, the starter button is pushed and, preceeded by a short spin or chatter, the engine starts. JohnnyAction posted that video because his bike was not regularly starting when the starter made the chattering sound.

The video shows exactly what my XS650SE does when trying to use the electric start. The entire post from JohnnyAction is here: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8970&highlight=electric+starter.

I believe JohnnyAction's post solves the problem with the "wishbone spring squeeze." I did the squeeze also in hopes of solving the same problem. Although I did not test e-start with engine still opened up, after reassembly, I did set the points and timing according to manuals. My expertise with points and timing is kind of shaky at best.

AND, FINALLY ...
gggGary: Are you suggesting that miss-set points or advanced timing could produce the e-starter problems similar to the starter gear spring?

Thanks again.

 

[Brassneck]

When you say "Intermittent" do you mean that it doesn't spin at all sometimes or that it spins but is loud, and doesn't seem to engage the gears?

I've had two XS's.. both had loud starter (Sounds) in general, compared to other bikes. With my current XS ('79), the starter would spin very slowly until it finally wouldn't anymore. The issue there was the starter seal had failed and it filled with oil. A new starter fixed that. (And the old one works now that the oil is gone).

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

Brassneck, thanks for the reply.

My "intermittent" meant the engine's actual starting is intermittent. The spinning (or as you say, doesn't seem to engage the gears) is usually present. When the spinning is not there, it "catches" and the engine starts.

Putting it another way, each time I try to start the bike, I pretty much repeat what is shown in JohnnyAction's video.

Do you think a better tune up would correct the e-start situation as suggested by gggGary's post from earlier today?

Thanks again. -- j.c.

 

[Brassneck]

Ah...ok, well how does the bike start when you kick it over? If it starts first kick, then it's likely not a tune-up fix, if it takes a lot of kicks, then yes, tune up could be the cure.

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

Brassneck, gggGary: I re-did the points and timing. He runs better, starts better — just not like it should.

This may be a deeper problem. Just minutes ago, when I timed the left cylinder the mark on rotor would not reach the "T" mark on the stator — even when I adjusted the plate inside the points for left cylinder to its furthest point in the direction that brought the timing mark closer the "T."

I really appreciate your expert help but I'm at the point. What else would you guys have for me to try?

Thanks again. -- j.c.

 

[5twins]

If it kicks back when you try to kick start it, that's an indication that the timing is off. Also, as you're probably aware, the charging system is all important to how one of these bikes starts and runs. I recently helped a guy with a pretty much all original '78 Special. We gave it the basic going over and tune-up but it was still very reluctant to start when hot. He eventually tracked it down to charging, or lack there of. He was barely getting 13 volts revved. He found one of the three white wire connections to the rectifier all melted and not making contact anymore. Basically he had 2/3 of the charging he should have had. He fixed that wire and the bike starts easy all the time now.

 

[5twins]

The "T" mark isn't for timing, it's TDC and used for setting valves. You want the "F" mark for idle timing .....

..... and for full advance, you want the unmarked slash to the left of the "F" mark .....

If you were setting your timing to the "T" mark then it was off, it was retarded.

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

Thanks, 5twins. I'll check the charging with voltmeter.

My last post had a cartoon with WTF! Would that stand for "Wasn't This Fun?

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

5twins says, "You want the "F" mark for idle timing ....."

That's the problem! Sometimes I get so fricking flustered I miss the basics.

I will be back before sunset! THANKS, EVERYONE.

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

I re-set the points and re-timed the machine. All went much better and the bike ran better. The right cylinder timed nicely with minor adjustment of points plate. However, when timing the left cylinder, I do not have enough adjustment to get the mark into the the "F" zone. The e-starting improved too but could be better.

I modified 5twins' illustration (see attached) to show what is happening with timing of left cylinder.

I don't know what's happening here nor how to correct it. Any takers?

Thanks one more time. And thanks, 5twins, for the illustration — I hope it was okay I borrowed it. -- j.c.

 

[5twins]

That won't do. You're too far advanced on that left cylinder. Try closing the points gap some.

 

[gggGary]

I won't claim expertise but I think if it gets hard to bring the two cylinders together on timing you are seeing the effects of worn out points. If the bike has some miles or has set in damp conditions the nylon cam followers can wear changing the points geometry. The wicks seldom get oiled, if the points cam gets a bit of rust it acts like sandpaper on the nylon. Once I get to ignition parts replacement a Pamco and new coil is my next step.

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

5twins, I don't understand the process but I'm on that closing the gap for left cylinder. Thank you.

gggGary, your suggestion makes sense. I ordered new points from Mikes. Thanks.

I'll report back for all my fans and followers . I do appreciate your sticking with me and my ignorance. -- j.c.

 

[5twins]

When you close the points gap up, the spinning points cam hits the points a little bit later because they are now farther away from it. That retards your timing a little bit. Also, used points develop pits on the faces. The spark jumps between those pits. You can't measure between the pits when setting with a feeler gauge. That means your gap is actually larger than what you're measuring. It's best to set used points at or near the lower end of the spec (.012"). Sometimes you even need to set them smaller, like at .010".

 

[JCB-78XS650-SE]

After narrowing the gap on left cylinder, the timing fell right into place. Great! Now the electric starter as well as the kick starter fire up the bike on first push/kick. YESSS!

5twins: So your Forum handle must mean you have 5 motorcycles with twin cylinders, likely 650s, and you've been working on them a while. Here I'd assumed you had 10 children (heh, heh). Maybe you do.

The explanation you gave was excellent. I understood it completely. I wrote essentially what you said in the margin of my XS650 SE manual. This one post has taught me a lot. I thank you a lot for the lesson on points and timing, 5twins.

For others that posted here, Brassneck and gggGary, I've learned how electrical can relate to clutch can relate to timing/tune-up can relate to starter can relate to it all. Fixing one thing on these great bikes usually requires fixing/adjusting many things. I also requires expertise like offered here at XS650.com.

Thanks. Adiós for now. -- j.c.