Electrical Nightmare

[andmag]

So my buddy did a frame swap, put the engine from an 83 xs650 Heritage Special into the frame from a 76. When he bought them the 83 was running, but being mechanically inclined he rebuilt the top end and installed the engine in the frame. He has no electrical experience and was busy so here the project sat, for 2 years in a family members garage.

Fast forward to now. I have a decent electrical background, but have just started dabbling in and riding motorcycles for just over a year. Both harnesses were sitting in a 5 gallon bucket with switches and "everything else." After about 4 hours with a multimeter and wiring diagrams I know what just about all of the wires on the harness are and have them with the proper electrical components.

I've done a lot of searching and figured out a couple of things but am completely at a loss with his coils. There are supposed to be 2 wires that connect to the main harness, but there is only 1 wire with a stripped end and no connector. I looked over both the coils and the splice points, to the wiring going to the breaker points, to see if there was a spot were a wire had been pulled out but I see nothing. Does anyone know where this wire should be coming from, or anything to point me in a direction? I will post pictures after this, they are on my phone and it isn't wanting to transfer to my computer.

Also the starter relay seems to be mia, he has a starter relay for a Harley but it is only a 3 post relay and this model uses a 4 post. Tried searching for the internal resistance of a stock relay but haven't been able to find it anywhere, would someone happen to know or be able to check the resistance? I could just solder a resistor on a wire and attach that on the start button post but I need to know the resistance.

He also wants to do a harness reduction/electrical minimization, but that can be addressed later getting the bike running is a first priority.

Any and all help/guidance is appreciated as I am currently lost in the sauce.

 

[andmag]

Here are the pictures of the coils. Also on the side of the coils is CM11-50 804, guessing that's the part number if that helps any.

 

[gggGary]

The 83 engine uses a TCI ignition, with pickups on the stator, a TCI black box and one dual tower coil. So you kind of need parts from both harnesses to make this work.
Any metric starter solenoid will work (about $10 on flea bay) the push button completes the ground path. (blue w white wire)

 

[member3480]

Did you take the points out of the older bike and put them into the 83 motor?
Did you look at the alternator and reg/rec?

 

[andmag]

Sorry I didn't clarify I have the complete harness from the 83. Just trying to see if it would be cheaper to solder a resistor into the wiring instead of him having to buy a starter relay.

The 83 heritage special has both electrical ignition and kick start so it has points originally. Why do you ask if I looked at the alternator or reg/rec?

 

[650Skull]

No the 83 didn't have points. Points ignition was up to and including 79E/SE/S II then from 80 and later the Factory electronic ignition, (TCI), was used, these bikes, (and all XS650's from 72), had electric and kick start.

83 has a sidestand cut out switch so the bike couldn't be ridden off whilr the side-stand was down.

76 has an on/off headlight switch and that was done away with by 83.

 

[fredintoon]

Here are the pictures of the coils. Also on the side of the coils is CM11-50 804, guessing that's the part number if that helps any.

Hi andmag,
your photos show the two coils for a points ignition engine, presumably they came with the '76 frame along with the rest of the '76's original electrics.
But you say there's an '83 engine in there.
The '83 engine's TCI ignition needs the '80 or later electrics in order to work.
Gotta be all from one or all from t'other; mix'n'match won't work.

 

[member3480]

They both answered your question
You have to use the complete 1983 ALTERNATOR/REG/REC/TCI/TCI COIL or you have to change everything back to POINTS with POINTS COIL ALTERNATOR REG/REC
So do you understand???
If it was me I would upgrade all to 83 parts and then you can eliminate some wires or start all over and buy the TC BROTHERS wires for a 1983 and just make up your own harness for LIGHTS/HORN/STARTER/BRAKE SWITCH.

 

[andmag]

Thank you for setting me straight like I said just started messing with bikes, I figured the 83 had points since the manual shows them but it is a multi year manual so that's for the earlier years. I guess I will be looking at both of the harnesses to see if the other coil is with the other harness.

The only other possibility is if the previous owner put the top end from the 76 on the 83 crank, I think the serial # was on the crank.

 

[fredintoon]

- - - The only other possibility is if the previous owner put the top end from the 76 on the 83 crank, I think the serial # was on the crank.

Hi andmag,
the engine serial # is stamped into the rightside front face of the crankcase.
An '83 engine will have an oil sight glass in it's rightside cover casting, when you remove the points and advancer covers there's nothin' inside and when you check the alternator you'll see the black oval blob of the Hall Effect ignition pickup on the face of the stator and a careful look at the rotor's copper brush rings will show a little square copper tab on the outside edge of the outer ring that's the Hall Effect trigger magnet.

 

[andmag]

Didn't get all that much time to look at it, my buddy said it was the guys part bike so it could be a Frankenstein engine, but the engine serial # is definitely an 83 heritage special. The stator/rotor looks like they are from an 83. There are definitely points as well. I didn't see any sight glass, but it was late so I barely looked at the cover. My buddy said it was definitely running with the dual coils, looks like the bare orange wire was spliced into the red/white power wire from the main harness. Is there any way that the points system could have been included with the 83 wiring? The front side of the top end has 7E30 stamped into it, looked a little online and couldn't find anything off of that.

 

[hmusket]

The engine is a combination, '83 and probably '76 like you thought. Previous owner probably switched to points for some reason lost to the wind, and put the head cover from a points bike onto the bottom part of the head in order to do the switch. If you look at the stator assembly you'll see its missing the TCI pickup.

The 7E30 stamp you see is put on both halves of the cylinder head because they machined together for a better fit. Look at below the split to see if the numbers match. I included a picture from my '82, to show you what I mean. I'm thinking the two halves don't match, because the bottom half is black, the top unpainted.

 

[andmag]

It did have the same number stamped below the split just like yours does, that must just be some rust because the bottom portion is unpainted as well. The crank is black though. Not sure what the TCI pickup should look like but thanks for pointing that out. My buddy did say that they were supposedly notorious for the electronic start going out, so I guess the previous owner modified it to be kick start only. Or is my thought process wrong here?

 

[member3480]

Your thinking too much just get the bike running and then go from there for upgrades. You only need a hot wire from the battery to the points and coil to get it running.
Here is a picture of a 1981 ALTERNATOR with the TCI pickup you don't have that by your picture. This bike seems to be two years in one and you got to make the choice of what year you want. All of these motors can run points or TCI its just what parts you have in front of you.
HERE ARE TWO PICTURES
1981 Alternator
1981 TCI
Coil for 1981 is single coil not dual

 

[XSLeo]

Here's a bit better pic of what the 80 up stator looks like. The black oval thing is the pick ups for the TCI ignition.
The TCI rotor has a magnet that triggers the pick ups and sends a signal to the TCI box That tells the TCI box engine position and rpms. The TCI box uses this info to tell when to fire the coil.
It does this by controlling the coil ground.
The TCI coil gets power on the red/white wire. There is an orange wire from the coil to the TCI box. The TCI box grounds the coil, this lets a strong magnetic field build up in the coil. When the TCI decides the coil should spark it ungrounds the coil. This stops the magnetic field. The magnetic field collapses causing the coil to spark.
The TCI coil is a dual out put coil. his means both plugs fire at the same time.
When the coil fires the spark travels down one plug wire to the plug, jumps the gap to the head. It now travels across the head to the other plug, jumps the gap, up the wire, back to the coil.
I also posted a pic of the 80 up reg/rec. If you have one of these use the 80 harness. It's a much better system than the 70-79 bikes used. Being solid state it works faster and controls the alternator output better.
Leo

 

[hmusket]

At this point in time it seems the bike has been modified to only lrun with the points system, don't worry about the TCI, because you don't seem to have it. Using a multimeter check to see if power gets to the coils. If power gets to the coils when the bike is turned on, then you should have spark. Since there is no starter relay/solenoid you will have to kick start the bike. The starter button will be of no use, and I don't understand the reasoning behind soldering a resistor into the wiring.

I understand the difficulty you are having figuring this out, because whoever made the changes didn't document what they did, something for us future Previous Owners to think about.