Exhaust Removal

chicagobuild

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Looking for suggestions on how to remove the stock exhaust.
Tearing down '81 xs650.
Any feedback would be helpful, the cross pipe seems to be holding up the removal, should i cut it or is there another way.
 
Absolutely do not cut the cross over pipe. Patience and some penetrating oil in the area of the allen head bolt will get the job done. You do have the allen head bolt removed? There is a gasket at the joint, which combined with rust is making it difficult.
 
Chicago,

With the exhaust system headers loose from the head and the various mounting points going back from there all removed, soak the cross pipe union with a good penetrating agent and let it sit for awhile. Then tap around the cross pipe union a bit with a soft hammer. At this point another set of hands is pretty handy but by wiggling the two sides in opposite directions at the same time the union will eventually surrender. At least it's always worked for me.

roy
 
Chicago,

With the exhaust system headers loose from the head and the various mounting points going back from there all removed, soak the cross pipe union with a good penetrating agent and let it sit for awhile. Then tap around the cross pipe union a bit with a soft hammer. At this point another set of hands is pretty handy but by wiggling the two sides in opposite directions at the same time the union will eventually surrender. At least it's always worked for me.

roy
Thanks Roy, I'll give that a shot.
 
Ohh.... I am interested in hearing Why RG says "DON'T CUT IT!...... because I did..... I could not get mine apart for love nor money
so I cut it off and welded plugs over the holes..... is that a No,no RG ? the bike seams to run great but I could be missing something I haddn't thought about !
Bob......
 
They CAN be removed as a set I've done it, but man was it a pain. No biggie on loosing the crossover, it helps sound and power a smidge but not so's you're likely to notice. Upper midwest they'll come apart at that bolted joint or crumble in two, either way gets the pipes off. There is a sleeve type graphite packing inside that joint. Rust buster, twist, beat apart using a maul and 2x4 blocking, repeat til something gives. If the cross over is rusty enough to break the mufflers aren't far behind.
 
Ohh.... I am interested in hearing Why RG says "DON'T CUT IT!...... because I did..... I could not get mine apart for love nor money
so I cut it off and welded plugs over the holes..... is that a No,no RG ? the bike seams to run great but I could be missing something I haddn't thought about !
Bob......
The Yamaha engineers put the cross over there for a reason. They could have saved money by not using a cross over, and made the accountants happy, but they believed it was beneficial. These guys are mechanical engineers that studied engine combustion and exhaust flow calculations in detail. It improves how the engine runs. Without the cross over your engine will not run as well.

In addition to that, a good set of OEM exhausts is getting hard to find and expensive. Once you cut off the cross over, you have just drastically cut the value of the exhausts. Anyone that cuts up OEM parts will eventually look back and realize it was a bad thing to do.

Maybe ask yourself why did Yamaha have the 2 air boxes joined together in a common source of air for the carbs. They could have made them cheaper to manufacture by not doing that. Yamaha engineers are smarter than we are, and they know that it makes the engine run better.
"Pod guys", just ignore the last paragraph.
 
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Ahh! ok thank you RG !
thank you for taking the time to respond as I know your very busy !
My offer still stands by the way, if you need me to "Baffel them with Bull" I could wright up a long drawn out story of some kind that is sure to put them to sleep ! ....LOL !
.....
Yes I know from my experience with a Honda305 scrambler that the intakes need to be joined to run better.... so it only makes sense that the exhausts would work better if connected as well, being on the same "Air Pump" ....
I have no idea How much of a degrade I did to my bike by cutting off the cross over pipe and I probably should have tried harder to remove it properly.... but I didn't like it on there to begin with .... too hard to get the pipes off! so I just cut it off.... ( after I got it off and out of the bike strangely enough) I had to use a crow bar and pryse against the head and cylinder to get those puppies off and beat them down with a rubber mallet..... then roll the bike over them to get the bike out of the way ! LOL
....and they still wouldn't seperate no flex at all..... so rather than fight it I hacked them off and welded a plate over each hole....
it worked quite well and the exhaust pipes can come off one at a time now which is a bunch easier to mess with!
I prefure it like this and the bike seams to run as good or better with this arangement i can't tell any diference at all...
and it's easy to tell if you drop a cylinder that cross over pipe can mask much of a dropping cylinder !
..... catcha' later
Bob..........
 
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They CAN be removed as a set I've done it, but man was it a pain. No biggie on loosing the crossover

I will second these thoughts. Been there, done it also. Standard sized freeze plugs will fill the hole. I am all for keeping things original but sometimes it just ain't gonna happen. As for the wisdom of Yamaha designers and engineers, there is no doubt. As to the rideability of a reworked exhaust, there is no difference that you will be able to discern.
 
Bob Kelly.....................who is Pete? If you are referring to me, I'm not very busy...............I'm a lazy retired guy:D
Bob and WER....................I respect your opinions to cut up stock exhausts, but I consider it to be a bad thing to do!
Once those OEM parts are destroyed, they are gone forever:yikes:
 
Sorry RG...... Mind fart ! on my part ! DUH ....."I knew that really ! I was just testing !" ( as my wife would say ! HAHAHAHA!)
......you and Maxpete are allot alike you never have anything Bad to say ! and in my book that makes you both winners of the 10 degree ! !:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
yah....but when your trying to get the old girl running good again and not spend a dime on her ya gott'a take drastic steps some times ! LOL.... I did manage it by the way..... after setting 15 years Plus I had only to buy a battery ! and seat.... even though I pulled the cylinders off and carbs many times..... it took months of work but I did it for practically nothing ! ....and it don't leak any oil ! LOL
.... so I call that a success.... even if I had to plug the crossover pipe.... hehehehe !
......
It sure is a noisy running engine though ... every time I start it, the sound just seams too loud to be good for it ! HAHAHAH!
but I'm confident there is nothing amiss inside so I'm going to run it this way and see what happens !
.....
Bob..........
 
Here's a little more detail on why a cross over pipe is desirable:

The torque-boosting effect of exhaust pipes arises as follows:

As the exhaust valve(s) of a cylinder open, a positive wave of pressure travels down the pipe. When it comes to any point of expansion (such as when it joins a collectors pipe, or when it reaches atmosphere), that wave of expansion also expands back up the pipe. If it arrives in the cylinder during valve overlap (exhaust not yet quite closed, intakes just beginning to open), it draws out residual exhaust gas in the combustion space and can even propagate into the intake system, causing intake flow to begin even before the piston has moved downward on its intake stroke.

Because positive and negative waves alternate in the pipe, at some lower rpm it is a positive wave that arrives at the cylinder during overlap. This reduces torque at this rpm by stuffing more exhaust gas back into the cylinder and into the intake ducts, thereby delaying the intake process. In motorcycles with carburetors, the positive wave also causes an over-rich condition, as the carburetor adds fuel to flowing air no matter which way it moves.

By providing another point of expansion, crossover tubes—which are often quite small—can broaden the rpm range over which the negative wave arrives during overlap, thereby improving cylinder filling and power.

So, it seems that both torque and power are improved. Extra free HP and torque just for using a cross over pipe!
 
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Yes, in effect they made a LONG straight pipe into a short one ! quite ingenious actually
I have alwayse loved exhaust theory especially in 2 strokes when the first tuned pipes came out that was really something to behold !
back in the day with a 400cc single Suzuki 2 cycle with a new tuned pipe on it it was like riding a completely diferent machine !
4 stroke machines are no diferent, with the right exhaust system they can really add the HP !
However I feel as if the XS650 has had the exhaust detuned for what ever reasons they never ever sound CRISP like good aftermarket pipes do.... I think that has to do with the Pipe coming down from the exhaust valve and it's reduced I.D. like they wanted to create Higher back pressure and More velosity of the exhaust gasses.... to me that seams Kind'a Silly,... I don't want back pressure I want the exhaust sucked out.... but then again I'm not an exhaust engineer and it's probably to do with a Comprimise between Low end and top end and fuel echonemy...... it is very hard to make a "one machine fits all" thing!!!!!!
..... my 2 cents !
Bob.........
 
Actually Bob I think Yamaha did make a "one machine fits all" with the XS650.
By having the 2 air boxes joined together, and using a cross over pipe in the exhaust, the engine has excellent low end torque, very good high end power, and excellent fuel consumption.................I get about 58.8 mpg or 25 km/L on long trips, (1978 XS650 SE).
IMHO aftermarket exhausts will never run as well as a well designed stock system.
 
RG sometimes the only thing you can do to keep the original look is cut them out. One it looked like they tried to lift the bike with a bottleneck jack and crushed the crossover. Another was rusted to the point of falling apart. Apparently you have never looked at the bike pics I've posted.
 
RG : Well Yah ! I didn't mean to imply that they didn't ! it isn't easy to come up with the Perfect machine but I think they came purty darn close!
the HP from the XS650 is LOW to others of it's time, but it is also built like a brick shithouse ( if you'll parden the expression) with roller bearings throughout ,it has lasted the test of time ! where others have not..... Look at the Kawasaki H2 750 tripple 72 bleeding HP ! it was a rocket ! and still is . i think it's dry weight was close to 400lbs is all and it not only was the fastest of it's time but a bitch to corner ! but it did go fast ! All Kawasaki's of that time cornered like a pig in my experience , at least Yamaha's handled half way decent ! I think the highest the HP ever got with the XS was 52 hp if I recall correctly in 1972 or there abouts but they backed off the hp over the years.... where most bike manifacturers went for more hp in their next modle Yamaha didn't , I guess they knew they had a good one and it didn't need it ! I had a Kawasaki 350cc 2 stroke rotory disk valve bike that made more hp than the XS650 does but it wasn't anyway near as fun to ride as this o'l girl is ! although blipping the throttle and getting the wheel up was fun I have to admit ! HAHAHA but that's compairing apples to orenges too their as diferent as a ford pinto and a Kenworth diesel ! the only thing they have in common is wheels ! HAHAHAHA !
I bet if you knew what things they changed over the years a person could get back to that 52hp instead of the 48 or so that I have now
so it makes me wonder just what the heck happened so long ago ! < makes me wish I had paid more attention to Yamahas then than Kawasaki's .... but 2 strokes were my thing in the 70's and I loved them ! still do..... I'ed trade my XS for a 750 tripple in a hartbeat
it would hurt only a bit to get the baby I've alwayse wanted ! HAHAHAHAHHA !
I'm Kind'a suprised that Yamaha didn't come out with a 2 into 1 carb system for the XS ! I have seen after market ones that guys have made up but nothing that really looked like it has caught on...... I suppose that would drop the HP even lower but ya might get 75mpg out of one of those ! and at the price of gas now that might be worth it !
at $2.95 a gal. in town it hurts every time we have to buy gas !
......
I've seen bolt on exhaust systems do wonders on bikes and I've seen them turn good bikes into dogs too.... I seriously doubt there is a good one for the XS650 yet.... their just cheap coppies of other brands that were supposed to be "THE BEST" on diferent machines with different cranks.... so I doubt you'll find a good after market set of pipes for the XS650 in all honnesty ....
I am seriously tempted to take the bike to a muffler shop and have them make me some headder pipes that extend past the rear wheel
and then set down with my calculator and figure out the needed length at 3,000RPM or so and then hack them off
you know like they used to do on triumph Bonnyville's their quiet and nice in front of the bike but ear splitting behind when you hit the pipes ! HAHAHHA ! i think that one modification would boost the HP of the XS back up where it should be ....My PERSONAL Opinion mind you..... and I may well be blowing smoke ! HAHAHA !
.... sorry for the NOVEL ! ..... LOL

Bob............
 
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Re. the 2-piece air box: look at the space available and ask yourself how a 1-piece box could be used without building the frame around it or losing volume; the 2-piece box is already too small for optimal performance, they put what they could where they could. Re. OE vs. aftermarket exhaust: right, most guys who mount aftermarket systems don't know how to tune for them, but those who do will experience definite gains with 1.5" single wall pipes and decent free flowing mufflers. Re. Yamaha's brilliant engineering team: must have been a different bunch from the bozos who stuck needle bearings on the wrist pins of the first batch of XS1's!

Guys, I love the old machine too, but in terms of technology the XS650 was not a class act. It was a price point production built to deliver the most displacement for the dollar available. The only thing cheaper back then in terms of dollars per cubic inch was a WWII surplus Harley WM; you could buy one still in the crate and coated with Cosmolene for $50. Let's value the bike for the tough ole critter it is, and not try to claim it was a high tech marvel designed by Yamaha's best and brightest; the smart guys were busy with the RD's and the in-house 4-stroke designs!
 
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