angus67
Welder's penetrate deeper!!
just clean out the old one with carb cleaner. do the one on the side too. no need to replace unless the screen is torn.
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FIRST TIMER - top end re build.
- Thread starter 650Greaser
- Start date
Keep both, When you change the oil just swap the clean one for the dirty. Then you can clean the spare anytime.
Even better, get a second sump plate, then just swap the plate/filter as a unit. Then clean the dirty one whenever. Another thing you can leave the filter right on the plate, you don't have to remove it to clean it.
When one of the filter tears you can just patch the hole. Use your favorite epoxy. If the tear is small just a good coat over it will seal it. If large, make a patch to cover the hole, glue inplace over the hole then coat the edges to be sure it seals.
Leo
Even better, get a second sump plate, then just swap the plate/filter as a unit. Then clean the dirty one whenever. Another thing you can leave the filter right on the plate, you don't have to remove it to clean it.
When one of the filter tears you can just patch the hole. Use your favorite epoxy. If the tear is small just a good coat over it will seal it. If large, make a patch to cover the hole, glue inplace over the hole then coat the edges to be sure it seals.
Leo
650Greaser
XS650 Enthusiast
wowza you take the sump filter out on every oil change?
You should at first, maybe for the first 10K or so, and most definitely after an overhaul. Let's face it, most of these motors weren't treated as well as they should have been. At the top of the "abuse" list was infrequent oil changes and filter cleanings. Many of these motors are just loaded with sludge build-up from that. It takes quite a few oil changes and filter cleanings to flush them out. It took 4 or 5 seasons and many, many changes before my filters started coming out really clean.
Since you've just done a top end, do your first change (and filter cleaning) at between 50 and 100 miles. Do another 300 to 400 miles later. After that, you can go to the normal routine of about 1000 to 1500 miles between oil changes and filter cleanings. Check the cam chain tension as well at every change.
Since you've just done a top end, do your first change (and filter cleaning) at between 50 and 100 miles. Do another 300 to 400 miles later. After that, you can go to the normal routine of about 1000 to 1500 miles between oil changes and filter cleanings. Check the cam chain tension as well at every change.
Yes, as 5twins said these bikes didn't always get the best of care. On the 81 I have not put many miles on it, it uses a bit of oil so I try to keep an eye on the oil condition and filter cleanliness to help me find out the why. It has good compression so I don't think the ring are bad, It may be valve seals or a bit of a leak on the head gasket. If I get to it this summer I may pull the head to do the head gasket and valve seals.
On the 75 I only have a few thousand since the 750 kit.
On both these bikes I may start cleaning the filters ever other oil change after a few more miles.
Leo
On the 75 I only have a few thousand since the 750 kit.
On both these bikes I may start cleaning the filters ever other oil change after a few more miles.
Leo
CDNTX650
XS650 Guru
Mine pukes oil out the breather more than anything. Good compression. Doesnt seem over full
Too much oil out the breather is most often over filling with oil. If on your 74 have you measured you dipstick the see if it is one of the upgraded dipsticks?
I'm pretty much sure yopu have heard about this, it has been discussed before.
They changed the dipstick in mid 75 to lower the oil level 10 mm or 500 cc's or about 1/2 quart.
Another thing can be to much pressure build up in the cases. This can be from bad rings or a bad head gasket.
Ringswould be excessive blow by.
The gasket can develope a leak from the cam chain tunnel enough to burn oil with out giving to low a compression reading, I guess it can leak enough to pressurize the cases to blow out excessive oil without showing low compression. A retorque on the head may help.
I'm not sure of any way to tell without actually pulling the head.
If it runs well and the oil loss isn't to bad I would run it. Maybe put a catch can on the breather to better dtermine just how much is lost.
Leo
I'm pretty much sure yopu have heard about this, it has been discussed before.
They changed the dipstick in mid 75 to lower the oil level 10 mm or 500 cc's or about 1/2 quart.
Another thing can be to much pressure build up in the cases. This can be from bad rings or a bad head gasket.
Ringswould be excessive blow by.
The gasket can develope a leak from the cam chain tunnel enough to burn oil with out giving to low a compression reading, I guess it can leak enough to pressurize the cases to blow out excessive oil without showing low compression. A retorque on the head may help.
I'm not sure of any way to tell without actually pulling the head.
If it runs well and the oil loss isn't to bad I would run it. Maybe put a catch can on the breather to better dtermine just how much is lost.
Leo
CDNTX650
XS650 Guru
I actually completely forgot about that dipstick. Ill have to do that. The motor has only 3800kms on re-ring. Valves were in good shape as it had low kms. I did a retorque. All was good. Its not a ton of oil but enough that i dont like parking it on someones driveway. Plugs arent oil fouled as far as i can tell and no smoke out of exhaust on decel or accel.
650Greaser
XS650 Enthusiast
top end going together finally this week. it's all painted up nice. and freshly honed , valves and seats ground to perfection . got my new rings. the vw performance tappets just need to get picked up.
i have the athena kit. and rvt blue. that i will line both sides of the head gasket . and the rocker top with. should i oil up the gaskets too. i have oiled in the past . want to know what folks think on here.
this is a stock 650 .25mm over sized pistons. i am looking for a leakless rebuild obviously/
what are the opinions on Permatex Ultra Black base gasket, 1104, Permatex Super 300, kopper coat . ????
too many choices. will the permetex rvt blue do the trik???
thanks
i have the athena kit. and rvt blue. that i will line both sides of the head gasket . and the rocker top with. should i oil up the gaskets too. i have oiled in the past . want to know what folks think on here.
this is a stock 650 .25mm over sized pistons. i am looking for a leakless rebuild obviously/
what are the opinions on Permatex Ultra Black base gasket, 1104, Permatex Super 300, kopper coat . ????
too many choices. will the permetex rvt blue do the trik???
thanks
I have only used 3bond 1104 on my XS, and found it gets the job done with no leaks. The head gasket just needs a thin line of the 1104 around the camchain tunnel, and the 4 outer stud holes that are exposed to oil pressure. Both sides of the gasket. The rocker cover uses the 1104 also. Some lads like to oil the gaskets, but I did not.
Make sure all mating surfaces are really clean. Lacquor thinner can be used to wipe mating surfaces clean.
I found it easy if I assembled the cylinders/pistons with the engine cylinders in the horizontal. Install the pistons into the cylinders with the cylinders upside down on the bench. Use a popsicle stick to guide the rings into the bottom of the cylinders. Install the inner wrist pin circ clips while on the bench. Position the pistons so there is wrist pin access. Slide the cylinder/piston combo part way toward the case, install the wrist pins, and the outer circ clips. Complete the slide to contact the engine case.
Torque to the correct numbers. Leave the top engine mount off, so that you can re-torque the studs after you have run the engine for a while.
Attachments
If you have the new Athena gasket set, the base gasket is chemically treated with heat activated sealer so you put nothing extra on it. I add small beads of Yamabond (or 3bond) to both sides of the head gasket like so. That's all though, I don't oil it .....
I oil the points and advance housing gaskets.
I oil the points and advance housing gaskets.
RTV is a sillycone based sealant. Any that squeezes out makes a bead. After this bead dries it can break off and wander around inside the egnine looking for a place to stay. Often this place is in a small oil pasage, blocking oil flow to a critical engine part.
Three bond, Yamabond or sealers like it, any that squeezes out runs down in a very thin layer. It dries that way and stays put.
Leo
Three bond, Yamabond or sealers like it, any that squeezes out runs down in a very thin layer. It dries that way and stays put.
Leo
650Greaser
XS650 Enthusiast
this is my T mark line up. when the pistons are at the apex of there hight. is that what i want. or is it supposed to be right after or before the tdc, so the T line up looks like in the manual on the other line. ????
i don't know if the timing was good or not. i have never run this engine.
cheers.
i don't know if the timing was good or not. i have never run this engine.
cheers.
Attachments
650Greaser
XS650 Enthusiast
another thing. i took the breaks apart and they were filled with rusty snot . any suggestions/remedies .
thanks
thanks
That's sort of what you want, close anyway. You're not on the "T" mark exactly in your pic which is probably why the notch isn't pointing straight up like it should. The actual mark is to the right of the letter.
If he rolls it to the mark won't the notch be further off not closer?
jkocr2
XS650 Addict
Yes counter clockwise so the cam will roll even more left
650Greaser
XS650 Enthusiast
i can't confirm the timing was done right b4 i started/ so i am going off piston position . if i go off the mark the pistons are not EXACTLY at the TOP of the stroke(i don't know if thats even what need. ) . i am asking about where the pistons should be at T mark. i can shift the mark around as there is an adjustment screw there. (unless that is set by the factory and i am better off just leaving it.) where the T mark is in the pic is when my LEFT piston is at the VERY top of the stroke. . . . expectable ?
When you roll the engine over the piston appears to stop coming up, this is not TDC. The piston will appear to not move for several degrees before it starts to move down.
This is what is often called piston dwell.
The plate with the marks was set to match the pistons actual TDC. I assume it was done with a piston stop and a degree wheel.
The basic procedure is to mount the degree wheel to the crank. Place a piston stop in the plug hole. Turn the engine over till it hits the piston stop, Place a wire on a bolt somewhere near the degree wheel. Bend it so it points to 0 degrees. Now rotate the engine the opposite way till it hits the piston stop. Record the degrees. Remove the engine stop. Lets say the reading on the degree wheel was 38 degrees. Divide by 2. This is 19. Turn the engine so the wire lines up with 19 degrees. Your engine is at actual TDC.
In your case it that stator was the one that was on that engine before you tore it down, it will be right. In your pic you will see two lines, one next to a F and one next to an T. The mark on your rotor should line up to the line next to the T for TDC. The line by the F is where the ignition should time to.
If you roll the engine to TDC as the marks show it the cam will be farther off.
From looking at your pics you are one tooth off. Take the cam chain adjuster out. This gives you max free play on the chain. Lift the cam enough to slide the bearings off one side. Lower the cam, this should give you enough room to work the chain one tooth counterclock wise around the sprocket. Looking from the left side of the engine.
Replace the cam bearings and tensioner adjuster. Tighten the adjuster. Now set the engine to TDC by the marks, look at the cam. Notch on the cam straight up? dot on the sprocket even with the sealing surface?
Leo
This is what is often called piston dwell.
The plate with the marks was set to match the pistons actual TDC. I assume it was done with a piston stop and a degree wheel.
The basic procedure is to mount the degree wheel to the crank. Place a piston stop in the plug hole. Turn the engine over till it hits the piston stop, Place a wire on a bolt somewhere near the degree wheel. Bend it so it points to 0 degrees. Now rotate the engine the opposite way till it hits the piston stop. Record the degrees. Remove the engine stop. Lets say the reading on the degree wheel was 38 degrees. Divide by 2. This is 19. Turn the engine so the wire lines up with 19 degrees. Your engine is at actual TDC.
In your case it that stator was the one that was on that engine before you tore it down, it will be right. In your pic you will see two lines, one next to a F and one next to an T. The mark on your rotor should line up to the line next to the T for TDC. The line by the F is where the ignition should time to.
If you roll the engine to TDC as the marks show it the cam will be farther off.
From looking at your pics you are one tooth off. Take the cam chain adjuster out. This gives you max free play on the chain. Lift the cam enough to slide the bearings off one side. Lower the cam, this should give you enough room to work the chain one tooth counterclock wise around the sprocket. Looking from the left side of the engine.
Replace the cam bearings and tensioner adjuster. Tighten the adjuster. Now set the engine to TDC by the marks, look at the cam. Notch on the cam straight up? dot on the sprocket even with the sealing surface?
Leo
