Wanted - functioning carbs 78 special

Hi Ron,
I may have screwed up about the ball & spring thing.
My post 1980 carbs have a single choke operating rod that slides through both carbs and that rod has the ball and spring.
My Clymers shows the earlier carbs choke system ain't like that.
 
so.If i get the new carbs.then hook some extra fuel line to a can of clean gas.and the red/white wire and the blue white wire and the ignition switch and solenoid are good i should at least be able to kickstart.right?
 
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Just for fun while waiting for the carbs to show up hook up the wires and pull two plugs out and lay them on the head or any grounded part of the engine and work the kick starter over a few times. You should be able to see spark jumping at the electrodes.

Make sure that much works before you take the time to mount the carbs, no spark it won't start no matter how good the carbs are you bought!.
 
If you have the ball & spring style carbs and need a new ball - let me know. I needed one for my BS34s and wound up buying a bag of 100 of the correct size 1/&" (0.125" dia.) balls.

I still have 99 left.

As for the spring - a Zerk grease fitting spring trimmed a bit for length fits perfectly.

Pete
 
If you have the ball & spring style carbs and need a new ball - let me know. I needed one for my BS34s and wound up buying a bag of 100 of the correct size 1/&" (0.125" dia.) balls.

I still have 99 left.

As for the spring - a Zerk grease fitting spring trimmed a bit for length fits perfectly.

Pete
wow.all you need is 98 more people in need.I cant imagine what shipping would be.
 
Just for fun while waiting for the carbs to show up hook up the wires and pull two plugs out and lay them on the head or any grounded part of the engine and work the kick starter over a few times. You should be able to see spark jumping at the electrodes.

Make sure that much works before you take the time to mount the carbs, no spark it won't start no matter how good the carbs are you bought!.

Good points all.I will definitely do that.Who knows.The way the guy rigged it the coils might be no good.But even kick wont work without coils.And even if one works it wont run right on just 1 cylinder.
 
Ron a clamp like this with one jaw on the plug threads and the other on a lower fin will hold the plug on the top cooling fin so it won't fall off and you can do it yourself.

clamp.jpg


You will see the spark if you're in your garage. Don't need total darkness.
 
....and if you cannot see it, then you've found a problem!
Kicking would eliminate the starter and solenoid. would the kill/run switch also be out of the loop.The ignition switch would have to power up the red/white wire,right? I think the ignition circuit and power to the coils would be the most important for a spark to occur.If that is right then it would be the coils.the bike is 39 years old but I have had older and the coils worked.But they didnt sit for 30 years.However, the bike still turns over with kicking.I proably will do for a moment as previously suggested and temporarily bypass the re/white by unplugging from the coils and running a wire direct from the battery to the coils.The ignition switch still has to work no matter what correct? The ignition switch could not power up the red/white if it is bypassed but would it then be powering up the temporary wire to the battery? I wish I understood this better. The wiring diagrams are starting to make sense more.
 
When I get into a new activity or return to one as I have returned to motorcycles after a 25 year absence, I always gather as much literature as possible on the new topic and read it. That is the best way to find out what is going on, who are the best suppliers of parts etc. and also, to make some new friends. With my return to motorcycles and particularly, old ones like my XS650s and even the 2007 Honda ST1300, I have subscribed to a couple of UK magazines: Practical Sportsbikes and Classic Motorcycle Mechanics. By the way, my local Chapters (like the US Barnes & Noble) stocks both of these so you can sample them without committing to a subscription. I also got the US-based Cafe Racer magazine which is also good.

These are all truly excellent publications and really informative because they actually show you how to DO something on your bike as opposed to simply how to BUY something for it which is what most of the "mainstream" bike magazines put-out these days - along with a lot of useless sh!t about riding the latest big-buck Harley / Indian / Victory / Ducati / BMW etc. etc. through "Wine Country". Sorry, journos, but not everyone is a California-based zillionaire whose business associates provide them with free bikes and hotel rooms and pays them to swan around writing about their adventures while wearing fancy biker gear and eating gluten-free, fair trade, free-range avocado-coriander-caviar-curry tacos.....

OK - I wish I was one of those people - but I'm not. Rant mode disengaged now. Anyhow....

....on the matter of ignition coils, I have read quite a bit on this Forum about how the old Yamaha OEM XS650 coils were weak and get worse over time and while the initially low kV rating of 1970s vintage coils did make sense, I did wonder why they deteriorated over time. It seemed to me that since an ignition coil is simply...a couple of coils of wire wrapped around an iron core and that the insulation would either be good or bad and that the wire would either be contiguous (not broken) or it would be broken. If the insulation is bad or if the wire is broken - you have a dead coil and can simply toss it because these things are sealed (potted) in epoxy and cannot be fixed. I suppose the insulation might be ok cold but begin to break down when it heats up - but whatever.

To rescue was the recent June 2017 issue of Practical Sportbikes magazine with an article on testing and refurbishing old ignition coils. The article essentially said that if the coil measures properly with an ohm-meter (ie. the primary side and the secondary side are within spec) - and this is a very simple yes/no measurement, then you can refurb the unit by simply cleaning the contacts really well with some steel wool or sandpaper and contact cleaner.

Due to copyright concerns, I can't reproduce the article here but the step-by-step gist of it follows:
  • CLEAN the terminals - each coil has a primary (low voltage) side and a secondary (high voltage) side.
The primary side is what connects to your bike's 12volt wiring harness and the two connections may both be wires with bullet connectors or one of the connections may be a part of the iron core of the coil sticking out the end of the unit. A bolt will go through that hole and act as a ground connection to the frame of the bike.

The secondary side of the coil is where the big voltage spark comes from. On our OEM XS650 coils I think it is around 15,000 volts but modern systems produce as much as 80-90,000 volts or 90 kV. There will only be one terminal for the secondary side as the spark plug screwed into the cylinder head provides the ground connection for this portion of the circuit. The secondary coil terminal has a large diameter plastic "nut" through which the spark plug wire goes. You can unscrew that nut and inspect the actual connector which is shrouded in a little plastic housing. Down in there is a thing that looks like a wood screw - THAT is the connector. To make the secondary connection, you simply screw the spark plug high tension (tension is another word for voltage) wire onto that "wood screw" thingy and slide the plastic nut back on and tighten it - with a little dab of silicone dielectric ignition system sealer grease to keep the water out.

You MUST have good connections on both the secondary and primary sides of the coil for it to work properly - and apparently, rust and crap on one or more of those three connections is the almost always the culprit when a coil is said to be "weak" or dead. The actual failure of a coil is not unknown, but it is rather rare, apparently. The magazine suggests a wire brush and a can of brake or contact cleaner to polish up the connections.

OK - so now you have cleaned the connections - let's test the coil!

TESTING an IGNITION COIL:
  • PRIMARY (low voltage coil - the 12volt part of the coil): this portion of the coil has about 300 turns of heavy gauge wire wrapped around an iron core. The resistance of this relatively short piece of large diameter wire should be quite low. Put your ohm-meter on the lowest scale and measure the resistance tween the two 12v terminals (one of which may be the mounting pad / bolt hole of the coil itself) - it should measure around 1-3 ohms (the value given in my Clymers XS650 manual is 2.25-2.75 ohms).
  • NOTE: measuring small resistance values is not easy, so when checking the primary side of an ignition coil, what you are looking for is a small value. A large value - like 100s or 1000s of ohms is bad.
  • SECONDARY (high voltage - spark plug lead side): this side will have around 20,000 turns of small diameter wire and resistance will be quite high - likely around 10-15,000 ohms. Put your ohm-meter on the 20K ohm scale and measure between the "wood screw" and the ground terminal of the coil (which, again, may be a mounting bolt hole through the body of the unit) - or if the coil has two outputs, simply measure between the two "wood screws". You want to see a resistance of around 10-15,000 ohms here - if not, you either have a terminal which needs more cleaning - or a bad coil (which cannot be repaired).
Anyhow - I'll bet MikesXS / XS650 Direct has made a lot of money selling coils to folks who could still be using their old ones if they had simply cleaned and tested them. This is a very simple task - likely less than 30 minutes start to finish.

Don't forget to put a little dab of dielectric silicone grease on the secondary coil connection (the spark plug wire) to keep water away from the electricity. If water gets in there - your spark plug may not fire consistently and the engine will "miss".

Once you've done all of that, wah-la - your coil should work like new again - or truly be dead - but at least you will know for sure.

Pete
 
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When I get into a new activity or return to one as I have returned to motorcycles after a 25 year absence, I always gather as much literature as possible on the new topic and read it. That is the best way to find out what is going on, who are the best suppliers of parts etc. and also, to make some new friends. With my return to motorcycles and particularly, old ones like my XS650s and even the 2007 Honda ST1300, I have subscribed to a couple of UK magazines: Practical Sportsbikes and Classic Motorcycle Mechanics. By the way, my local Chapters (like the US Barnes & Noble) stocks both of these so you can sample them without committing to a subscription. I also got the US-based Cafe Racer magazine which is also good.

These are all truly excellent publications and really informative because they actually show you how to DO something on your bike as opposed to simply how to BUY something for it which is what most of the "mainstream" bike magazines put-out these days - along with a lot of useless sh!t about riding the latest big-buck Harley / Indian / Victory / Ducati / BMW etc. etc. through "Wine Country". Sorry, journos, but not everyone is a California-based zillionaire whose business associates provide them with free bikes and hotel rooms and pays them to swan around writing about their adventures while wearing fancy biker gear and eating gluten-free, fair trade, free-range avocado-coriander-caviar-curry tacos.....

OK - I wish I was one of those people - but I'm not. Rant mode disengaged now. Anyhow....

....on the matter of ignition coils, I have read quite a bit on this Forum about how the old Yamaha OEM XS650 coils were weak and get worse over time and while the initially low kV rating of 1970s vintage coils did make sense, I did wonder why they deteriorated over time. It seemed to me that since an ignition coil is simply...a couple of coils of wire wrapped around an iron core and that the insulation would either be good or bad and that the wire would either be contiguous (not broken) or it would be broken. If the insulation is bad or if the wire is broken - you have a dead coil and can simply toss it because these things are sealed (potted) in epoxy and cannot be fixed. I suppose the insulation might be ok cold but begin to break down when it heats up - but whatever.

To rescue was the recent June 2017 issue of Practical Sportbikes magazine with an article on testing and refurbishing old ignition coils. The article essentially said that if the coil measures properly with an ohm-meter (ie. the primary side and the secondary side are within spec) - and this is a very simple yes/no measurement, then you can refurb the unit by simply cleaning the contacts really well with some steel wool or sandpaper and contact cleaner.

Due to copyright concerns, I can't reproduce the article here but the step-by-step gist of it follows:
  • CLEAN the terminals - each coil has a primary (low voltage) side and a secondary (high voltage) side.
The primary side is what connects to your bike's 12volt wiring harness and the two connections may both be wires with bullet connectors or one of the connections may be a part of the iron core of the coil sticking out the end of the unit. A bolt will go through that hole and act as a ground connection to the frame of the bike.

The secondary side of the coil is where the big voltage spark comes from. On our OEM XS650 coils I think it is around 15,000 volts but modern systems produce as much as 80-90,000 volts or 90 kV. There will only be one terminal for the secondary side as the spark plug screwed into the cylinder head provides the ground connection for this portion of the circuit. The secondary coil terminal has a large diameter plastic "nut" through which the spark plug wire goes. You can unscrew that nut and inspect the actual connector which is shrouded in a little plastic housing. Down in there is a thing that looks like a wood screw - THAT is the connector. To make the secondary connection, you simply screw the spark plug high tension (tension is another word for voltage) wire onto that "wood screw" thingy and slide the plastic nut back on and tighten it - with a little dab of silicone dielectric ignition system sealer grease to keep the water out.

You MUST have good connections on both the secondary and primary sides of the coil for it to work properly - and apparently, rust and crap on one or more of those three connections is the almost always the culprit when a coil is said to be "weak" or dead. The actual failure of a coil is not unknown, but it is rather rare, apparently. The magazine suggests a wire brush and a can of brake or contact cleaner to polish up the connections.

OK - so now you have cleaned the connections - let's test the coil!

TESTING an IGNITION COIL:
  • PRIMARY (low voltage coil - the 12volt part of the coil): this portion of the coil has about 300 turns of heavy gauge wire wrapped around an iron core. The resistance of this relatively short piece of large diameter wire should be quite low. Put your ohm-meter on the lowest scale and measure the resistance tween the two 12v terminals (one of which may be the mounting pad / bolt hole of the coil itself) - it should measure around 1-3 ohms (the value given in my Clymers manual is 2.25-2.75 ohms).
  • NOTE: measuring small resistance values is not easy, so when checking a primary side coil, what you are looking for is a small value. A large value - like 100s or 1000s of ohms is bad.
  • SECONDARY (high voltage - spark plug lead side): this side will have around 20,000 turns of small diameter wire and resistance will be quite high - likely around 10-15,000 ohms. Put your ohm-meter on the 20k ohm scale and measure between the "wood screw" and the ground terminal of the coil (which, again, may be a mounting bolt hole through the body of the unit) - or if the coil has two outputs, simply measure between the two "wood screws". You want to see a resistance of around 10-15,000 ohms here - if not, you either have a terminal which needs more cleaning - or a bad coil (which cannot be repaired).
Anyhow - I'll bet MikesXS/XS650 Direct has made a lot of money selling coils to folks who could still be using their old ones if they had simply cleaned and tested them. This is a very simple task - likely less than 30 minutes start to finish.

Don't forget to put a little dab or dielectric silicone grease on the secondary coil connection (the spark plug wire) to keep water away from the signal. If water gets in there - your spark plug may not fire consistently and the engine will "miss".

Once you've done all of that, wah-la - your coil should work like new again - or truly be dead - but at least you will know for sure.

Pete
wow.What tremendous information.Some conclusions and observations now- I have bought classic mechanic several times.That is when I had a suzuki gs and kz 1000. I never saw anything on them.If you owned a 65 bsa441 or ariel square 4 they might have something.I wonder if an xs has ever been featured.There might be a way to check their archives.Second-15,000 volts versus 80,000.It would prudent to buy 2 new ones.Do the new ones have the woodscrew also? I don't own an ohmeter and have no idea how to use one.A youtube video might show how.But i get the gist of what you are saying. I know sparkplug wires light up like christmas trees when they are bad and these most likely are.There are some bikes that the wires can not be removed and replaced.They are like molded onto the coil. The basic things you wrote here are universal.I appreciate the information.And lastly you should be a motorcycle journalist.I deleted what i wrote about my potemtial scratch built bike but years ago a friend of mine and I were going to create a repro of a 41-53 flathead Indian.He knew how to build a cope and melt down aluminum auto scrap,blocks,heads,to pour a head.The cases could be found.He also had a design to use vw pistons.And improve the valve material and oil galleys so the valves would not fail. He could build frames suitable for nascar,he had a frame shop in california.He could build a girder fork from scratch.He built bikes for bonneville speed trials. He could build high dollar electrical components from items commonly found at radio shack.He was also a certified master tig welder.But, he kinda went crazy,doing things that did not make good sense so that was that. I could have learned so much. Its up to me and you guys.So far that has worked but It hasnt started running as of yet.I have $900 in it now. I am going to have to see something happen before i press on.I do not want to have to rebuild the motor.Even ebay motors are $700.Too highpriced for a risk.If rods,pistons, rings,main roller bearings are available i would go that route instead.But the project would be years in the making.Which is ok kinda as long as i dont misplace something.Thank you to you and all of you.Sorry to be so long winded.

Those guys eating fish tacos, riding 100 miles in california then doing a writeup turn me off also.
 
I am just waiting and waiting for the carburetors.I was looking at my throttle cable.I could not believe my eyes.Surely not,say it isnt so but it looks like the cable goes through the headlight.Surely not , and if so why?
 
Indeed, why, WTF etc. There must be a special place in hell for the previous owners for old motorcycles.....
 
my 68 year old eyes.However I still dont know why a long piece of blue whire is spliced into the red/white wire and hanging down where the r/w goes under the tank.It looks like they made it to reach under the positive post of the battery. The throttle cable didnt go through the headlight after all.The wire looms,harnesses that are big and wrapped are so crammed together I looked at the wrong one.The cable is really crammed in around the forks and triple tree and eventually hangs down where the carb will eventually be.But I do agree with the statement. To digress,once when my son was 17 I wanted to get him a cool car.A friend of mine had a nice camaro well worth the 2500 he wanted. He said the car smokes so bad he couldnt even drive it. I drove it 7 miles home.It looked like one of those trucks that sprays mosquitoes.Got home, checked the oil.He thought the car was low on oil because he couldnt see it in the tube.he filled it till it ran out the dipstick hole.Approximately 8 quarts too much.I drained refilled, the car was fine.
I am so ready to get this bike sorted out.Once i hook the stuff back up if it doesnt run or start because of a missing link I will buy a new harness and do it all over. Hey, on my wiring schematics it shows one wire,either red or red/white dont remember which goes to the "light checker". What the heck is that and where is it.Can it be eliminated.
 
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