Good Heart, Bad Intentions: another build thread

Great work! Question: on my bike running a 18" SR500 rear wheel, on the chain drive side the tire is a lot closer to the SA than on the other side and yes the rear wheel is definitely centered in the bike. Has that been the case with yours?

I have been wanting to do a monoshock on mine as well and have come to the conclusion that an R1/R6 link setup will be the easiest to package.
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Great work! Question: on my bike running a 18" SR500 rear wheel, on the chain drive side the tire is a lot closer to the SA than on the other side and yes the rear wheel is definitely centered in the bike. Has that been the case with yours?

In short, no. Sidewall-to-swingarm clearance is tight(er) with the box gusset, but even on both sides with the wheel centered. I am using the stock rear wheel and a swingarm that is identical to stock, except for approx. 1/4" of length and the tubing schedule.

I have been wanting to do a monoshock on mine as well and have come to the conclusion that an R1/R6 link setup will be the easiest to package.

I was very attracted to the R1/R6 setup, but once I had the bike tore down, the frame chopped, and started mock-ups, I ran into problems. On the positive, the back/bottom of the rocker link moves forward away from the tire during compression. Also, the parts are generally simpler (read: easier to modify). On the negative, the link places the bottom of the shock very far forward, and at a more vertical angle (which limits upper mount options). Also, the back/top pivot of the rocker needs to mount in the middle, between the legs of the swingarm, fighting for space with the tire.

In contrast, the outboard pair of links in the ZX6 arrangement can be squeezed around the tire somewhat, leaving more of the central area between the legs open for the tire and shock.

Also, the R1/R6 dogbone link location is critical to the suspension action, and needs to be located and sized to keep the rocker in a neutral position at rest. This is important, as the bottom of the shock can impact the dogbone at full droop if not positioned critically. Be aware that the R1/R6 dogbone angle, length, and relative position of the forward mount to the main swingarm pivot are all critical. You've probably seen that lowering links are available, but I suspect that their limits are sharply defined by stock-application mounting positions; the XS650 lower rear motor-mount dictates where these links attach to the frame, and a stock geometry may not be possible to replicate.

In the ZX6 arrangement, the rocker and shock can be mounted in the most mechanically-advantageous position, and the dogbone links built at whatever arbitrary length to set the swingarm angle and/or ride height.

The R1/R6 system packaging may be possible; I certainly haven't tried every combination! If I were to use a longer swingarm, say just 1.5"-2", many more options would appear. Likewise, accepting a higher shock position (or a modern swingarm or a smaller wheel...) would open up the possibilities.

Take a look at the CBR "Pro-Link" linkage; it has the potential to combine some of the advantages of both.
 
I looked at the ZX6 linkage, it appears to me that the angle of those links is very important to get the correct rising rate, when in roughly the right position they would have to be spread out pretty far to clear the tire and that's what led to my question about how close the tire was on the left side. I'd like to stick with the stock swingarm length etc and it seems to me that the R6 linkage can be more easily adapted, since the single forward link attaches to the frame of the bike. It also seems to me that link's length can be changed without goofing up the motion ratio as long as the relative angle is kept close. I have a set of the R6 links in all my junk that's ~100 miles away at the moment, I guess I need to dig them up and start measuring.
 
Following closely. I have a near identical slave and I'm happy to have you do the pioneering. Thanks! Now for your custom push rod build..........

I have the same one as well. My third slave. 28mm bore I think. I don't have the piston retainer though.

osteoderm, Great build and great documentation! Keep up the good work!
 
I looked at the ZX6 linkage, it appears to me that the angle of those links is very important to get the correct rising rate...

Yes and no... The angle is less important than the horizontal distance between the upper and lower dogbone pivots (which, along with length, sets the angle). The progressive action is only one function of these linkages; the other more important function is that of multiplying the leverage of the spring upon the swingarm.

The progressive action is determined by the radius of the circular path taken by the lower shock mount (relative to the path taken by the swingarm, as measured in the same vertical plane), and the position of the mount throughout its stroke. In the ZX6 arrangement, this action is determined by the distances and relative positions described by the pivot points within the rocker link. As such, in my case I'm working hard to get the neutral sagged position of the rocker "just right".

...when in roughly the right position they would have to be spread out pretty far to clear the tire and that's what led to my question about how close the tire was on the left side.

The ZX6 dogbone links are mounted just far enough apart to clear the spring on either side, which puts their overall package width just inside the tread width of my 120/90-18 tire. Go any wider (outside the tread width), and you begin to encounter chainline interference problems. Notwithstanding clearance for the spring, the dogbone links have to mount outboard in any event, as there just isn't enough room in the center of the swingarm; the crown of the tire tread is only about 7/8" away from the spring.

The upper mounts don't have to clear the sidewalls, moreover, it would be impossible with the stock swingarm. In my application, there turns out to be only one reasonable upper dogbone mounting location, and as luck would have it, it's both close to the stock-application geometry and clear of the tire

... It also seems to me that [the R1-style] link's length can be changed without goofing up the motion ratio as long as the relative angle is kept close.

Agreed, but... The relative angle is determined by both link length and pivot location; if you change the length without changing the pivot, the angle will change as well. This is why the best R1 lowering kits use different triangle plates, to change the pivot location along with the link length.
In adapting to the stock XS650 frame, especially with a stock(ish) swingarm, I've found that you're really limited in mounting options.

The R! system has merit, and I'd like to see it work. Besides, it keeps all the parts Yamaha! :laugh: I just couldn't figure out how do make it work for me.
 
Keeping it all in the fambly is a good thing. :D

I'm thinking I will make a temporary forward mount for the link that will allow adjustments so I can tune it closer before firing up the welder. The toughest part of the fab for the R triangular pivot will be making the mount on the underside of the swing arm. I *think* there is enough room on mine (I'm also running a 120/18) to be able to have a cross brace for both shock link mounting and a mount point for the pivot and still have ~1/4" clearance for the front of the tire. The shock will have to be higher than your mounting but I think it will work.

Pic of an R6 shock:

rear.shock.05.jpg


I have two just like this left over from another nutty project. There's also an R1 shock with a straight reservoir:

images


I think it will be necessary to shorten the shock's overall length to keep the swingarm from traveling too far, more than about 3 1/2" and it's possible for weird things to happen, not the least of which is the chain will get real loose! So I'll figure out how much travel I'll need, then disassemble the shock and add a spacer inside to bring the length down a bit. As far as I can tell, I'll still have space to run a full size battery although I may have to shuffle things around a bit.
 
There isn't room for both a cross-brace and the shock body between the swingarm pivot shaft and the tire. If you run the shock higher, so that only the lower shock eye is between the cross-shaft and the pivot-shaft, you should be fine. Keep in mind that the shock body will move forward slightly as it compresses, so leave a little extra room.

Good thinking about limiting travel! I'm pretty sure my shock will be on the bumpstop before the wheel travels 4". I have to beg/borrow/steal a spring compressor to get the shock tore down; it'll be easier to examine the range of travel with the spring and dust shield removed.

Yeah, a higher shock mount would have saved me some trouble too, but I wanted to leave myself as much room as possible for a low seat and other weirdness...
 
More mock-ups, and a start on the forward rocker mount:

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Hard to get a good shot of this area that really shows anything well. The faint Sharpie mark on the swingarm, near the bright scuff, is the proposed horizontal location of the upper dogbone mount.

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Not much clearer, but you can see that while things are tight, there's just enough room to keep me sane.

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Would have preferred to place the forward rocker-link mount more below the main frame crossmember, but a combination of poor geometry and worrisome ground-clearance has it up here, against the backbone.

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Another boatbuilder's habit: a full-size mock-up template wherever possible. These tabs are made from 1/4" high-density polyethylene that I had leftover from another project. The HDPE is an excellent template material; tough and stable (unlike cardboard), but easy to form with hand tools.
The tabs are asymmetric, indexed off the 1" tube crossmember, then beveled to fit tightly against the motormount brace.

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Templates rough-transferred to 1/4" carbon steel plate. Made the 1" hole with a friend's monster flywheel punch press, then rough-cut the shape on the bandsaw.

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Grinding, filing, and beltsanding to get the profile smooth. Still have to make the bevels to fit the motormount brace, but so far, so good! Most importantly, indexing the parts off the tube crossmember has kept the centerline of the mount parallel to the swingarm pivot.
I usually overdo the fits, but my welder never complains. :laugh:
 
The fit can never be too good. Looking real good! :thumbsup: I'm leaving my seat at stock height meaning I can mount the shock higher. If I get away from aluminum body shocks, there are some Honda remote reservoir shocks out there that can save some room. Damn things put the preload adjuster on the wrong end, though.

CBR_shock_comparo.jpg
 
osteoderm, just out of curiosity what master cylinder are you planning to use with the aprilia slave cylinder? What is the diameter of the piston in the slave cylinder? And lastly What is the piston diameter of the master cylinder you are going to use? I ask because I was looking at doing something like this but want to make sure I am on the right track. I was looking at using an Oberon slave (30mm) for the aprilia or ducati with the magura master (16mm) from mikesxs. If my math is correct that would give a surface area of 201 sq mm for the master and 707 sq mm for the slave. I did a rough measurement of my cable actuated clutch and it appears to move about 4mm so i would need about 13mm of travel at the master cylinder piston for full action. Does this seem right to you?
 
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osteoderm, just out of curiosity what master cylinder are you planning to use with the aprilia slave cylinder? What is the diameter of the piston in the slave cylinder? And lastly What is the piston diameter of the master cylinder you are going to use?

The slave is 28mm. I have the OEM Brembo master off a similar Aprillia, which is a 15mm bore. The cable actuator may be capable of a 6mm travel, but (correct me if I'm wrong here) I believe the stock XS clutch only uses 4.5mm. Also, while the cable actuator may have 6mm of linear travel, everything beyond the first 30% or so is falling-rate, ie., for a given cable pull, you get less and less travel from the actuator as you go. This is also exacerbated by the geometry of the lever and perch.

Frankly, I didn't do as much math as you. :) My goal wasn't to make the clutch easier or have longer travel; it was to make the action linear and more responsive, with better "feel". The Aprillia slave has more than enough stroke for the XS application, perhaps even too much. Paired with the stock master, I find it hard to imagine that it will be incapable of a 5mm stroke.
 
I also looked at Mike's Magura master. Are you referring to the same Part #08-0252? I believe it's a 13mm bore, not 16mm.

Uhg... you're making me do the math :laugh:

Assuming a 30mm slave and a 13mm master, you get a master:slave travel ratio of approx. 5.3:1, yielding a stroke of 32mm at the master to get a 6mm stroke at the slave. Even with a 5mm slave stroke, your hypothetical arrangement (Oberon slave, Mike's Magura master) calls for 26mm stroke. That seems pretty high to me.

With my Aprilia parts (28mm slave, 15mm master) I get a master:slave travel ratio of approx 3.3:1, yielding a stroke of 20mm at the master to get a 6mm stroke at the slave. A 5mm slave stroke yields a 17mm master stroke.
Will it be enough? We'll see... :shrug:
 
I had to go recheck my measurements with some assistance from my son and it is moving just over 4mm so I will have to redo my math. May just have to find an aprilia slave on flee-bay as I don't think a 13mm master and 30mm slave will work properly. A 28mm slave and a 13mm master may work ok (4mm @ slave = 18.5 @ master). I will send a message to mikes about the 2 clutch masters they offer and see if they can tell me what the usable stroke is on them. I am interested in the self adjusting properties of the master/slave hydraulic system and also looking for an easier pull for the clutch. We'll see how it all works out. Thanks for the input and corrections.
 
ippytattoo,

I'm assuming you've checked out this thread regarding hydraulic clutches?
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2344

The bottom half of the chart I posted is assuming a 16mm stroke of of the master cylinder piston, since that's what I measured my 12.9mm master from MikesXS to be (Part #08-0261)

Since I now have a 28mm slave (same one osteoderm and gggGary have) and a 12.9 mm master with 16mm stroke, I guess I'm looking at about 3.4mm of pressure plate movement. I thought that was going to be enough based on Leo's measurements in that thread, but now you guys have me second guessing. He said stock is about 3mm and you get spring coil bind at 4 to 4.5mm. When I first started doing all of this, I was shooting for 2-3mm of pressure plate movement. I read that somewhere about motorcycle clutches in general, but maybe the XS650 is happy with just a little bit more. Most of the conversions you see look like they are using Honda slaves (38mm) and the masters that got along with them (5/8") which would yield 2.79mm of pressure plate movement. :shrug:


osteoderm,

I don't think those radial master cylinders have as much of a stroke as the regular master cylinders, so you might right in there at the 3-4mm mark for pressure plate movement.. I think 5mm would be too much. If you can measure the stroke of that master cylinder with it mounted on the handlebars (lever and grip and all), then you'll know I guess. The markings on those radial master cylinders only show the diameter of the piston and sometimes the distance between the lever's pivot point and the piston center.
 
I'm assuming you've checked out this thread regarding hydraulic clutches? http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2344

Yes, that thread is what got me going along this road in the first place. I was set to follow the Honda/Kawasaki slave route, but just couldn't get over how large it was, the sidecover machining involved, and the bleeder placement.


I don't think those radial master cylinders have as much of a stroke as the regular master cylinders, so you might right in there at the 3-4mm mark for pressure plate movement.. I think 5mm would be too much. If you can measure the stroke of that master cylinder with it mounted on the handlebars (lever and grip and all), then you'll know I guess. The markings on those radial master cylinders only show the diameter of the piston and sometimes the distance between the lever's pivot point and the piston center.

Agreed. I went with this slave for the looks, ease of fitting, and availability. I chose the master because it was the stock application match, accepting all along that it might be a wash. The stock adjustable Brembo levers could be dialed-in to shorten the available stroke, but I'm pretty sure I'll need all of it anyways; I am seeing 13-14mm of m/c travel at the bar (the stoke bottoms before the lever hits the grip).
Worst case, I'm looking at a different master. Okay, even worser case, I'm looking at a different slave, but now any replacement Rotax/Aprilia unit will fit my retainer and mounting holes. :)

Never know for sure until we try, right?
 
Travis Yeah that is one of the threads I have been looking at. At this point the only thing I have to measure is the end of the adjuster bolt under the cap. I am sure that there is some wasted movement between the end of the adjuster bolt and the pressure plate but I thinking that on my '81 with 6 friction and 5 steel discs using your table which refrences 28mm slave, 12.9mm master and 16mm stroke on the master that we are probably actually looking at about 3.5 - 4mm at the pressure plate. We would only be looking at about 0.6mm wasted movement in all of the associated balls and mechanisms at max. So this is looking very promising.

I am going to go ahead and pull the trigger and order parts tonight. When I get it all put together I will start a new thread with details about parts and movements versus cable actuated to make it easier for anyone else loking at it.

I also have a couple of different levers and perches (one stock and one from a kz900) so I will see if one of my neighbors had a fish scale to measure the lever pull weights and post those as well.

I wonder what I would have to list my bike as when it is done, it will be a collection of parts from triumph, kawasaki, honda, .....
 
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