Have you got the balls

[funky]

Ok SEE IF YOU GOT THE BALLS TO BE HONEST................
This question is to all you men who have rebuilt an engine for the XS 650 total strip down and rebuild no cheap china parts proper parts well engineered quality.

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THEN ONTO THE NEXT SECTION
If I sent you my engine for a full proper rebuild you have to give me a 12 month warranty WHAT WOULD YOU CHARGE ME
think of the work and time you had to put in and price it up as if your a business to turn an honest profit I.E a honest days work for and honest days pay..
also all the tools and equipment you use have to be bought add that to the price give me a ball park figure but an honest one Please no games or satire be real ,,
so all the tools you would use rough price then parts based on your rebuild any ancillary services you had to use like engineering company for skimming or reboreing...rough price then your time for the amount of hours it took you ​

I pass this challenge to you best of luck Funky

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Well, I think that I can take a crack at this, but will have to put in the perspective of 40 years ago, when factory parts were still available, and stuff made in China was illegal.

With that kind of warranty in mind, in a dealership setting, we're talking complete 'return-to-new' overhaul, no out-of-limits, no bandaids.

All new wearing parts: New crankshaft, oil pump, pistons/rings/wristpins/valves/guides/springs/rockers/shafts/camshaft/camchain stuff, borejob, headwork, new clutch, all bearings/seals, gaskets, ignition, sprockets/drivetrain. The tranny parts could be re-used, if they pass inspection. Other parts at the mechanic's and owner's discretion.

Similar engines that we worked on regularly at that time were Triumph twins, and Honda 350s, 360s, 450s, 500T's. Complete renew overhauls of these would run in the neighborhood of $400-$500 USD.

I remember overhauling mine at that time, and the 'ouch' factor of the Yamaha parts. I'll add in an extra 10% because the Yamaha parts were a bit more expensive. So, something on the order of $450-$550.

Now, that was 40 years ago. I use the 6% inflation guide to translate values starting from 1970, about when our monetary system changed. Prices double every 12 years, so the formula 2 to the (Y/12) power, where Y=years, works out to about 10 times the older pricing.

To put it in perspective, I paid $350 for my '306' crank in 1983, which was built almost 11 years before that date, and was pretty close to twice the original price.

So, at 40 years of inflation, that works out to around $4,500 to $5,500.

Assuming that you can even find those parts...

 

[Airwolfie]

Well. the parts alone for my engine cost me £600, and I did NOT replace the crank bearings which are a mere £100 a piece over here! So you looking at £1K already just for parts! Add the labour(took me two weeks to do mine lol! Probably could do it in a weekend now!) so about 15hrs at the going rate of £60p/h, you are probably looking at another £900. And then for the guarantee I would probably do another 20% of the total, so you will be looking at +- £2500 on my rates! You can buy a running decent XS over here for that money!!

If you want new pistons and rebore, that would set you back probably another £500 odd.

New PMA, Valves, will also add to this...........

 

[jtrip72]

Ok SEE IF YOU GOT THE BALLS TO BE HONEST................
This question is to all you men who have rebuilt an engine for the XS 650 total strip down and rebuild no cheap china parts proper parts well engineered quality.

IF THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE THEN ONTO THE NEXT SECTION
If I sent you my engine for a full proper rebuild you have to give me a 12 month warranty WHAT WOULD YOU CHARGE ME
think of the work and time you had to put in and price it up as if your a business to turn an honest profit I.E a honest days work for and honest days pay..
also all the tools and equipment you use have to be bought add that to the price give me a ball park figure but an honest one Please no games or satire be real ,,
so all the tools you would use rough price then parts based on your rebuild any ancillary services you had to use like engineering company for skimming or reboreing...rough price then your time for the amount of hours it took you ​

I pass this challenge to you best of luck Funky

 

[txbluecollar]

I can see 4-5 grand for a rebuild like that. And some parts might take some time to locate.

 

[DIRTY DOG]

well thats a hard one,parts over there are diffrent price than here in the us,and as twomany said do you want a rebuild/overhaul or do you want it back to new with all new bearings,valves cam chain guides new screens all yamaha parts not sure it could be done, now over haul reuseing bearings, valves ( grind and lapp in ) bore over size pistons new gaskets and seals new cam chain and guides, parts around 1,300-1,500 labor about $500,( thats me doing it here at home ) I have all the tools to do it, but will have the mechine shop clean and do the bore work. so around $2,000 -2,300

 

[member3480]

OK here is what I do and been building motors for sale for over 35 yrs.
I learned early that you have to give a warranty so all of my MOTORS have a 6 month warranty . That is plenty of time for the idiot that doesn't know bikes to destroy it. In the last 20 yrs 2 have come back with over 50 built in that time.
Now the hard question are parts for what you want still around new and YES they are all from JAPAN or CHINA. Where did Yamaha come from? So if you bought a used bike and parts of the motor were in good enough shape to reuse and you bought parts from whoever a good rebuilt motor no upgrades just a stock motor with enough new parts can be built with labor for under $3000.
Now if you want to be CRAZY I have built $30,000 motors just not a XS650 but let take a stab at it.
XS crank sent out to be balanced and new bearings $750.00
XS trans sent out to be back cut and new parts $450.00
XS big bore kit $700.00
XS head new valves vale guides 3 angle cut $600.00
XS cases blasted $200.00
XS clutch New parts $500.00
Now just these parts and no real big up grade so far we are at $3200. and no where near done so this looks like a $6000.00 motor when done
Your lucky if you could sell it for that SOOOOOO
What's your point? HOW CRAZY CAN YOU GET or can it be done.
Me I take a stone stock XS 650 motor SPLIT CASES and install new SEAL- PISTONS-GASKETS-CLUTCH-CAM CHAIN and GUIDES-VALVE SPRINGS and re-lap valves NO ELECTRONICS with 6 month warranty and its $1500.00 out the door and I am not charging you for TOOLS used who does that.
So bottom line I really don't think you could get enough NEW parts for a XS650 for what you are asking for and the parts are still going to come from JAPAN or CHINA.

 

[funky]

Thanks for the feedback Chap Outstanding you all made me smile keep them coming people there is a point to this but lets give it a while longer anyone can post as long as you have rebuilt a XS 650 Engine ...

 

[funky]

Ok Just stripped the engine down to the conrods I need to measure the tolerances to see if they are too worn these measuring tool needs to be bought Then strip head down valves need to be measured another tool for that bore dial for small holes and big holes vernier caliper engineering calipers all cost money cheap one are shit expensive ones are on the money thats why i asked you to factor tools in because they have to be bought by me to do the job of a re-build

Breaking the engine down was like opening a Pandoras box it reminded me of when i am working with a patient and I take them to there most painful place and they break down in tears that was me dudes

It seems to me and this has no bearing on anyone else on this forum BUT by the time you buy all you need its cheaper to have the engine professional rebuilt by someone who knows there stuff specially if you want reliability and a tight functioning machine.

I paid £2400.00 for a very clean bike, yes it was about 400 over what i wanted it as all i saw before were PIGS, I was assured that the engine was ok and rebuilt 1000 miles ago this was not true and to be honest I did not believe them... no problem I then went ahead and purchased all i needed to turn a bike that looks like a Harley into a cafe racer mission accomplished.
the cost of the that was a further £1200.00 give or take some change
Bike went well enjoyed it for a bit then boom ATU explodes changed that
Then oppps smoke left cylinder not to bad could be electrics could be Carbs new high voltage coil iridium plugs Chuck in a Pamco kit lovley. runs well still smoking valve stem oil seal changed new head gazket ...may as well ...ported the intake lap in the valves Opps did not skim the engine still smoking ....... engine out again NOOOOOO leakage twomany and 5twins on the money

I did and do enjoy working on engines and bike and cars but
What my point is...
I will not do a better job than the professional engine builder, by the time you skim this hone that buy this and that even if your lucky and there are no mistakes the saving is minimal I Have been quoted £1500 to £1800 for a full stock rebuild every part checked worn parts replaced engine bead blasted and cleaned bar side panels thats for me to polish so I get a new bike essentially.

If I take items to the engineering shop they will charge me for measuring and doing the work If you have to buy the stuff to measure the components its more expensive again that why you have to add the equipment you use tools to measure Because i have not got them.

so if you have posted here add up you measuring equipment and add it to your parts list and think of the hours you have spent to finish the job and times it by what you earn an hour and that what it cost you in total from my perspective, I think it is great to do stuff yourself but without the right equipment it much more expensive your more likely to mess up and it will cost you more in the long run. That is my point
In engineering and to measure the small tolerances you have to have to build a good engine you need accurate equipment and that cost around the price of a rebuild

The reason I started this Thread was because everyone assumed i had engineering equipment measure this and that 30 thou here 4 thou here
take it to the shop they will measure it for you In England or more to the point where I live,, they charge you, sounds like in the USA its free... I was just reading a thread chap buy 553 pistons puts the on 447 conrods then wants to know why when he bought the timing mark to TDC he had 10mm of piston and rings hit him in the face and that,s not the only thread where stuff has gone wrong.
I really dont want that so Med Speed here I come and I knew you lot did not have the balls to say what it really cost you... case closed I win lololo

All the best Funky

P.S by the way JTrip72 that was funny because i look like that fella ... but with glasses lolol nice one

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Sir Funky. A strange thread, indeed. A review of some of the salient points:

...If I sent you my engine for a full proper rebuild you have to give me a 12 month warranty WHAT WOULD YOU CHARGE ME

thats why i asked you to factor tools in because they have to be bought by me to do the job of a re-build

by the time you buy all you need its cheaper to have the engine professional rebuilt by someone who knows there stuff specially if you want reliability and a tight functioning machine.

I think it is great to do stuff yourself but without the right equipment it much more expensive your more likely to mess up and it will cost you more in the long run.

The reason I started this Thread was because everyone assumed i had engineering equipment measure this and that 30 thou here 4 thou here

I knew you lot did not have the balls to say what it really cost you...

In a way, a short stroll thru the land of vagarity and ambiguity.

Charge you? Cost you? Cost me? Costs a shop?

One of the missing components is the experience/skills/abilities/connections of the mechanic himself, an intangible.

Might get different answers if the question was: How much would it cost a beagle to do this?

I suppose if you wanted to include all manner of tooling, you'd need to include the facilities that would house the compressor, lift, toolboxes, boring bar, lathe, mill, media blaster, paint booth, solvent tank, ...etc. Now you're talking a fully equipped shop.

What if you wanted to make your own pistons from lumps of aluminum? That could be either a full-blown precision manufacturing facility or Burt Munro's little shop.

Some of us can set points, timing and valve lash by eye and feel. For others, best done with a few more tools.

One of the pleadings from this forum is asking members to post in their signature line: What are the particulars of your bike?
Perhaps another should be if the member is a mechanic, builder, tinkerer, really needs mentoring help, or "just wanna ride" and can't be bothered with doing things. Might help to narrow down all the wild responses.

I love studies in ambiguity. At one time I adopted a philosophy of "ambiguity matching", borrowing from one of electronics' design rules of "impedance matching".

For example, we had a new hire, and I was asked to get her settled into her office pit.
She sat at her terminal, turned to me and asked:

"What key do I press to program the computer?"

After a momentary blank stare, my response:

"Eventually, all of them..."

 

[5twins]

For a one time engine rebuild, you can't be nor are you expected to buy all the special tools, but you can still save lots of money by doing all the dis-assembly and assembly yourself. As an example, I helped a guy replace a bent valve in a Virago a couple years ago. The shop told him $1000, we did it for about $100.

 

[funky]

What key do I press to program the computer?"

After a momentary blank stare, my response:

"Eventually, all of them..."

I Like this bit that great

 

[lakeview]

funky, thanks for brightening my morning twice today.

 

[hooser]

I have to charge you $100.00 for wasting my time. I am a slow reader and it took me that long go through all this. I take paypal. Thanks Gary

 

[funky]

I have to charge you $100.00 for wasting my time. I am a slow reader and it took me that long go through all this. I take paypal. Thanks Gary

I really laughed at this bit was great Sorry dude we will all have a whip round for you your great

 

[funky]

ok lets get back on topic I spoke to smed speed and he said something very interesting about rebuilds I quote

I am not surprised that your engine is tired, i see a lot of XS650 engines, and some have even been "rebuilt"recently, however the extent of the rebuild seems to be new gaskets, and sometimes even seals. The manuals available do not offer any insight into measuring or ascertaining what level of wear has occurred, so it gets left.

The cylinder top surface gets warped quite easily if the head is not torqued up carefully, i surface grind every one to ensure complete flatness, when they warp they leak compression and oil. so yours is quite a common complaint.

Nearly every engine i dismantle exhibits the same wear patterns, small ends wear ( the copper plating wears away, Yamaha must have had a hell of a laugh specifying copper as bearing material, only chocolate would be more useless)
the main bearings frequently have excessive movement in them, all this is due to the dreadful oil filtration system, IF an engine had very frequent oil changes, the fine particles which wear bearings out would be flushed way every 1500 miles, BUT most people do not do this frequency, and thus the bearings are sitting in a slippery slightly abrasive soup a lot of their lives..

what do you think of that and I personally like the crack about conrod and chocolate
All the best Funky

 

[funky]

Your welcome lake view i do get frustrated with the bloody thing the bike i mean but i love it and i have learnt to laugh at things don't take much things serious. hey if you cant have a laugh what else is there .... and all you chaps are great and bounce back at me I have laughed so much today its good fun too along with information learnt lots from all you dudes thanks.

 

[funky]

Hi have not been on for a while hope you are all well... My engine is done fully rebuilt just wiating to collect once i have i will post how i get on.
The engine has not been rephased it remains a 360 it is now a 707cc with an oil filter converstion pretty much everything inside has been replaced. will keep you posted ... all the best Funky

 

[BobbedSled]

I looked for 6 months but I eventually got all original Koyo bottom end (4 crank along with big end rod and Yamaha thrust washers) and key top end bearings. So you can find them. It was quite spendy. Not as much as rebuilding a motor 2-3 times though.

Most came from International locations. Then I shopped around and found a near mint 77 motor with low miles and no corrosion and bought that. So I have bearings sitting in the box waiting for that one day as there is no way I wold spring for a rebuild and stick on low tolerance, inferior grade metal Asian "contemptible" bearings.

I would take the time and source original Japanese bearings, many have them as new old stock actually before I did any rebuild.

Hope your rebuild goes well, good luck!

 

[fredintoon]

Hi Funky,
I dunno why you are costing special tooling in the mix. If the guy who rebuilds my engine ain't already got the kit to do the job and ain't already rebuilt a whole bunch of them he ain't touching mine.
If I wanted it botched up by an ignorant amateur I could do it myself, eh?
That said, there's a guy in the USA who'll do a rebuild and rephase on your motor for US$3,000 plus shipping.
Betcha shipping from the UK & back would scupper that deal.