HELP!!! I broke it!!! Won't start. Warning LONG!!!

[fredintoon]

- - - It's such a simple engine.....- - -

Hi Barb,
while an elderly ex-Brit like me reckons that a boot up the backside works better than a pat on the shoulder, it's good to see your words of sympathy and I too wish Gordon the best of good fortune in exorcising his Gremlin.
But "a simple engine"?
No way it's simple, it's a twin cylinder cammy fer Chrissake!
It's got twice as many parts as a KSS Velocette!
My 350 JAP had maybe seven parts in it plus a Pilgrim pump.
Now THAT was a simple engine.

 

[5twins]

From looking at the pics in some of your other threads, it appears you still have the original plug caps and plug wires. Those caps can go bad. The resistance rating on them is a rather odd 9K ohms or something. When they go bad, that begins to climb and eventually starts hindering the spark. Remove the cap or the cap and wire and measure through them. If you get a reading of 10K or above, they're going bad. I know you have new parts coming but if you're like me, you like to know what the problem was that you're fixing.

 

[Gordon in nc]

From looking at the pics in some of your other threads, it appears you still have the original plug caps and plug wires. Those caps can go bad. The resistance rating on them is a rather odd 9K ohms or something. When they go bad, that begins to climb and eventually starts hindering the spark. Remove the cap or the cap and wire and measure through them. If you get a reading of 10K or above, they're going bad. I know you have new parts coming but if you're like me, you like to know what the problem was that you're fixing.

5twins......I wish you were into BSA unit singles Good eye.

Yes.....all the bits are, as far as I can tell stock. Maybe the points are newer...but again as far as i can tell the rest of it is 40 years old. I was amazed when it started for the first time.....and it was running good.

I'm going to swap stuff out but yes, I'll leave them on the bench and try to find out which ones were bad......IF....new bits fix it.

Barb.....Guru???? I've just been lucky.

This bike has a place in my heart already and I'll sort it...or die trying.

Let's see....battery is new and good. I keep an eye on the voltage. I have it on a tender and don't trash it to much trying to start it until the tender's light is green again.....but no I haven't tried kicking it. Will do tonight.

Damnit girl......uh......oh.......uh......no I haven't been making sure the bob weights aren't moving but I'm turning it over with a socket, then wrench (when I'm close) and how in the world could the bob weights be moving when I'm creeping the crank back to the timing marks????? New springs and moly on both the rod and the bob weight posts.

Damn.......next time email me and don't em bare ass me in front of the guys

I'll try that tonight.......hugs.......GG

Thanks for all the help guys AND girls, don't give up on me, I'll get it sorted one way or the other.

Gordon

 

[5twins]

Yes, by all means kick it. These bikes actually start easier with the kicker if the battery is at all in question. That electric leg sucks so much power that if the battery is even a little low, there won't be enough juice left over to power the ignition. Even if the battery cranks it, that's no guarantee there's enough power left over for the ignition. All you have available may be going to the starter.

These batteries aren't very big and don't have much reserve. Sustained cranking quickly depletes them. So does trying to churn that 20W-50 on a cold day. On cold days, say in the low 50s or below, I'll kick mine for the first start of the day. After that, once the oil has warmed and thinned, the electric leg works fine.

 

[Gordon in nc]

Man oh man I hurried home to give the kick a try. To be honest this is only the second bike I've owned (since 1968) that has a starter and I didn't keep the other one very long. So I was excited about giving the kicker a try.....better yet, I have a driveway that has a downhill section. In the 30+ years I've lived here I have never had a bike that runs fail to bump start on that driveway. The ONLY reason I hadn't tried it with the XS....was that the starter seemed to be turning the engine over pretty well and the XS is HEAVY and getting back up the hill gets harder and harder every year.

So you guys and gals know I pay attention to your suggestions.....first off I drained the float bowls and checked for flow.....good. Then I zip tied the bob weights together so they wouldn't move and checked the static timing....good. Then I put the meter on the battery and it's something like 13.65 volts fresh off the tender. OH....and tightened up the drive chain while I was at it......thinking I would be riding it around.

Well........no joy. I've been around enough to know that if you have to kick a bike more than twice (and it should be once) something isn't right. I'm not going to sit there and kick it a dozen + times....not gona do it. So after 5-6 kicks I say the heck with it....we're going down the drive way. Pushing that bike back up the driveway was enough for tonight.

Bits will be here tomorrow......it shouldn't take long to get that stuff swapped out....I'll let ya know what happens.

Thanks again for all the help......it helps more than you'll ever know.

Gordon......a bit down........but not out.

 

[pamcopete]

Gordon in NC,

I think all of us that have offered suggestions wish we were there. Collectively, I'm sure we could find the answer. I would suggest that whatever it is, it is simple, we just don't know what it is, so focus on the basics....out...

 

[Brassneck]

Rooting for you from the West Coast... too bad you can't set up a camera, and go over the entire bike, so we could see what's going on....maybe it's something so subtle but obvious? Like the kill switch shorted out or fuse blew or something random.

Either way, I'm hoping it works out.

 

[Gordon in nc]

Gordon in NC,

I think all of us that have offered suggestions wish we were there. Collectively, I'm sure we could find the answer. I would suggest that whatever it is, it is simple, we just don't know what it is, so focus on the basics....out...

You know, in a way you all are here looking over my shoulder but I've blindfolded you a bit with my descriptions since you can't actually see what I'm doing.

I agree, it's going to be simple once it's found. It's not fair to the bike or you all for me to be chasing this and still have all those 40 year old bits in place. I've heard this bike run and have done a few miles on it......it's a keeper and I need to do what ever it takes to keep it alive. I'll get the old stuff swapped out and IF that doesn't do it. I'll figure out a way to do as Brassneck (thank you for the kind words) suggested and figure out a way to video the bike and what I'm doing/have done to it.

Fingers crossed and wrenches at the ready.....I'll not leave ya hanging and I'll not turn my back on this problem...Gordon in NC

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...but I've blindfolded you a bit with my descriptions since you can't actually see what I'm doing...

I have my Britbike Translator turned on, and whenever the phraseology "backfire and popping out of the exhaust" occurs, it pokes me in the eyeball.

Yeah, this is where pictures could save our bacon. If you can, how 'bout:

- Pull the plugs.
- Do the finger-over-the-sparkplug-hole trick to put the RIGHT cylinder at compression TDC.
- Nudge the rotor to align its mark to the TDC mark.
- Take a clear/crisp close-up pic of the points plate, so we can see every detail.
- Take a clear/crisp close-up pic of the advancer unit, so we can see every detail.
- Post it up here.
- Sit back and relax while 99 eyeballs take it in, followed by barfight quality commentary...

 

[retiredgentleman]

You should be using the ohmmeter part of your VOM to measure the resistance of the path from the battery to the ignition coils. Just because you have a fully charged battery, does not mean that the proper voltage is reaching the ignition coils.

Things like the main fuse, the ignition switch, the killswitch, and the various bullet connectors become oxidized over the years, resulting in a high resistance path. If you have a high voltage drop, you could be trying to run the ignition on 9 or 10 volts.

 

[Gordon in nc]

I have my Britbike Translator turned on, and whenever the phraseology "backfire and popping out of the exhaust" occurs, it pokes me in the eyeball.

Yeah, this is where pictures could save our bacon. If you can, how 'bout:

- Pull the plugs.
- Do the finger-over-the-sparkplug-hole trick to put the RIGHT cylinder at compression TDC.
- Nudge the rotor to align its mark to the TDC mark.
- Take a clear/crisp close-up pic of the points plate, so we can see every detail.
- Take a clear/crisp close-up pic of the advancer unit, so we can see every detail.
- Post it up here.
- Sit back and relax while 99 eyeballs take it in, followed by barfight quality commentary...

The mailman wasn't kind to me today...so here goes

I pulled the valve covers off to be sure both valves were closed on the RIGHT side. OH...and the paint was crappy on the rotor's timing mark so I got rid of it and painted the line instead.

AND....for the heck of it I checked the spark on both sides.....with the starter then the kicker to compare the two.....The spark I'm seeing would run any of my BSA's and I couldn't tell the difference between the kicker and the starter's spark. I will say that to my eyes....the right side had a better spark than the left.....but the left still looked good.....actually better than any of the other points engines I have in the shop.

Worn out in NC..........

I'm having computer problems...so it might be a while before I'm back.

Gordon in NC

 

[angus67]

How old are your plug caps? wires to coils?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Great pics, Gordon!

First off, the basic points and advancer position look correct. TDC right side puts the advancer and slotted disc reference lines at 8 o'clock. Right/upper point just opened, grey wire on that point.

Now, the nits:

The points plate is advanced. Looking at the points cam notch, I don't see any significant camshaft retardation (like from a stretched camchain) to justify that much pointsplate advance. The points look aged, and fiber followers are worn, but should still work. Maybe the points gaps are too small, and/or followers too worn, forcing you to advance it that much?

The points insulating washers look non-centered, like maybe the inner insulation washers are missing.

Just a personal (pressure distribution) thing, but I like to have one of the tiny metal washers between the wire lug and points spring.

I also like to have the advance weight retention circlips openings facing outward.

The alternator brush holder screws with that large insulator washer look odd.

Just for fun, could try unplugging the condensers, then kickstarting it...

 

[Gordon in nc]

Angus, my guess is they were new in 1975.

Two Many, I probably did some damage to the points when I first started riding it around. I put a little over 50 miles on it and didn't know the points cam had surface rust on it. Probably ground them down some during those miles.

I think the point gap is set at .013 right now. Heck, I've tried it with so many different set ups I'm not sure now where I stopped.

Let me get the new bits here and installed and we'll see what happens.

The condensers are buried under the tank/head stay????? any way to unplug them with out removing the tank....I'm worn out tonight and just don't have the energy to pull the tank and put it back.

I've printed your post and will check off those nits . It will also be interesting to compare a photo of the new points installed and static timed to the photo above.

Thanks for the help.......don't give up on me I'm still in the fight.

 

[Brassneck]

I know the pic was in request to TwoMany, and I think this has been stated, but you're timing to the F marks and not the T mark, correct?

 

[Gordon in nc]

No problem Brass...ya gota keep an eye on me at all times. But yes.....the photo was for Two Many to show I was a TDC. I'm static timing with the ye ole trusty light bulb .... in between the two lines on either side of the F. OH.....and just so you know that I know......I'm timing full advance at the line to the far left with no letter.

And Brass.....if those new bits don't do the trick.....video is the next step. I think I can rig up that camera to work out alright.

Okay TwoMany if you're kind enough to try to help, I shouldn't get lazy on you so I went out and pulled the tank.....disconnected the condensers and kicked it. Nothing.

Man oh man....could they have hidden the condensers any better?????? Geeze that's going to be fun and I better read up on their removal.....the rest of it seems pretty straight forward.

It's never to late to start wasting your life......I'm picking up a parts XS (1975) this weekend...if not sooner. See......I ain't giving up.....I'm just getting started ( no pun intended)

Gordon in NC

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...the photo was for Two Many to show I was a TDC....

Yeah, there were reasons to doit thataway. First, TDC is stable, the crank isn't trying to reposition due to cam lobes pushing. Second, it's easier to see if the crank/camshaft relationships are correct, by judging the perpendicularity of the advance shaft notches.

... Okay TwoMany if you're kind enough to try to help, I shouldn't get lazy on you...

Warning: I was a workaholic in my past life. Pace yourself 'cause I can't.

...so I went out and pulled the tank.....disconnected the condensers and kicked it. Nothing.

Man oh man....could they have hidden the condensers any better?????? Geeze that's going to be fun and I better read up on their removal.....the rest of it seems pretty straight forward...

Well, that was a 'grasping' test. Good to know anyway.

Those condensers (as a single unit) are mounted inside the leftside top motor mount, gotta disassemble that thing to get to them. Make note of their orientation, the way their wiring is routed. And, lastly, there should be a separate black grounding jumper wire in there. Ensure it goes back the same way (unless it's been goofed-up). Many folks here recommend taking pics before disassembling things so they know how things went...

 

[Gordon in nc]

TowMany, in my much younger days I could keep up with the best of them...not so much nowadays.... but my new friend (?) you bring it and I'll do my best to keep up.

Photo's are such a BIG help and I'll make sure I take plenty. One of the reasons I'm getting a roller 650B is so I can refer to it too and have some spares (I love spares)....but like you said, you never know what the POs have done to it over the years.

Okay.....I did some research last night on the condensers. Damnit.......looks like I should re-torque the head bolts while I'm at it??????? Good Lord......PLEASE watch over me and PLEASE don't let me strip anything. Going to find some copper washers today at lunch so I have them in hand.

OH.....and on that BIG washer you were talking about.....damnit brother, keep your eyes on the task at hand......we'll deal with that OTHER stuff later!

IF the postman (actually a woman) brings me my stuff tonight.....I'll be a bit busy but will check back in ASAP.

Take care and thanks again for the help........Gordon in NC

 

[weaselbeak]

Why does it appear that both sets of points are open at the same time? Optical illusion?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Why does it appear that both sets of points are open at the same time? Optical illusion?

That's no illusion. Its quite normal for points to be open at the same time. Points are only closed for 93 degrees of camshaft rotation.