incorrect torque spec for caliper hex bolts in Haynes?

I too am curious as to why a Helicoil wouldn't work in this application...

Could be an unnecessary and expensive option.
The original threads would need to be drilled oversize, and tapped for helicoil anyways.
If boltsize clearance thru the other parts isn't an issue, then just use larger bolt.

The helicoil could be advantageous if the bolt is routinely removed/reinstalled, and longevity of the female threads is at risk.

Or, you're trying to retain period correct originality...
 
Thanks for tips

Since I don't like this kind of workarounds/repairs if not absolutely necessary, it crossed my mind that this caliper type is used also on other models, sometimes more likely to find in a break up bike part store over here. See below the models I found that seem to use the same caliper. Could the ones who know confirm that they indeed do so before I contact the stores. The early xs650 are not very common here. People seem to hold on to the few existing ones.

1972-75, RD250 RD350 RD500 TX500 TX650 TX750 XS2 XS500 XS650

Thanks
 
Hi marp68, there are also Time-Serts as an alternative to helicoils. The Time-Serts is a new thread not just a thread repair. I would say that the Time-Serts would solve the problem for you.
 
Or, you're trying to retain period correct originality...

Yes, sometimes, but safety first, then cost and easyness to repair. The local workshop guy has the tools for helicoil and will have a look at it on Monday. Hopefully he won't charge that much for it. The difficult part is to drill and tap straight.


Interesting! And fun to see someone near me. Seems that timesert requires a little more work and cost more. But is it better?
 
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Stockholm. Is there a lot of earlier xs650 in Denmark? At least that's my impression when browsing the web

Anyone know which pitch the M8x20mm hex bolt has? Looks like 1.00 but want be sure.

Any answers on the caliper compatibility between yamaha models. These seem to be the same: 1972-75, RD250 RD350 RD500 TX500 TX650 TX750 XS2 XS500 XS650.
 
If space is critical, there's also the 'in-between' UNC and UNF options.

8mm = 0.315"
3/8" = 0.375" (9.5mm)
10mm = 0.394"

A 3/8"-16 UNC thread would be like a M9.5 x 1.5mm (tap drill size = 0.312", about 8mm)
A 3/8"-24 UNF thread would be like a M9.5 x 1.0mm (tap drill size = 0.332", about 8.5mm)

Didn't see it until now. Will mention it to the workshop guy. Space is actually critical, but only at the bottom of the hole and between the wall and the outside. But since there is approx 1 cm of space at the bottom where the bolt never reach, one don't have to drill and tap that far in.

What about fine and coarse pitch? Since you mention coarse, would the metric M8 coarse (1.25) also work? I suppose they choosed fine pitch to make it more tight.
 
If space is critical, there's also the 'in-between' UNC and UNF options.

8mm = 0.315"
3/8" = 0.375" (9.5mm)
10mm = 0.394"

A 3/8"-16 UNC thread would be like a M9.5 x 1.5mm (tap drill size = 0.312", about 8mm)
A 3/8"-24 UNF thread would be like a M9.5 x 1.0mm (tap drill size = 0.332", about 8.5mm)

BTW, TMXS, since you mention the coarse pitch as well. If going with helicoil or similar, would an M8 with the coarse pitch 1.25 be as good as the OEM 1.00? I reckon they choosed the fine pitch for a reason.
 
Strange as it may seem, even though course threads have deeper thread engagement, they also have a lower "pull out" threshold compared to fine pitch threads, by around 90%.

I'm totally clueless about your brake components, just offering machinist info...
 
TMXS, So if I understand you correctly, the 3/8-24 UNF will sit more tight? I intend to use some loctite anyway.

Grizld1, I didn't found any stainless M9 near me, only galvanized M9 with pitch 1.00. I would like to have stainless down there. Will have to look more or go with the UNF 3/8.
 
TMXS, So if I understand you correctly, the 3/8-24 UNF will sit more tight?

Finer threads have a slightly higher 'pull out' yield, but that's when tension loads are applied after installation. During installation, thread pull-out has other factors, like thread coatings and roughness...
 
You're making a simple repair way too complicated. You're not seeing the forest because of the trees. Those two smaller bolts, one of which you stripped, aren't there mainly to hold the caliper halves together, that's the job of the two bigger bolts. These little ones are there to insure a good seal around the fluid crossover. Their low torque spec is a clue for this. They simply maintain even pressure around the crossover hole, not letting the caliper spread open there under brake fluid pressure.

I already mentioned the Helicoil repair and think it would be perfectly acceptable here. You want stainless? The Helicoil insert is stainless, and properly done in alloy, the repair is usually stronger than the original threads. Not that it needs to be, this is a low torque fastener. The biggest bad thing I see about going to a larger bolt is that this is a countersunk Allen. Not only would you need to drill and tap the threaded hole bigger, but you would most likely need to enlarge the countersunk area as well. The new larger bolt will most likely have a larger head. This is all way more work than a simple Helicoil repair.
 
... The biggest bad thing I see about going to a larger bolt is that this is a countersunk Allen. Not only would you need to drill and tap the threaded hole bigger, but you would most likely need to enlarge the countersunk area as well. The new larger bolt will most likely have a larger head. This is all way more work than a simple Helicoil repair.

And THERE's the trump card.

Yep, forgetabout a larger bolt. Helicoil it...
 
Yes, you're right 5twin. I just don't want to make any more mistakes, especially not in the brake system area. :(

I had a look at the helicoil page. It seems that for an M8, you need at least 13 mm hole, so the tap can go far enough in. It might be just about that. Hopefully it's enough room to use it. It also said that max torque for the M8 helicoil was about 0.6 mkg and that is standard for M8 bolts.

The stainless thing was regarding the new bolt. Since it's a common wet area when raining, I thought it might be better with a stainless steel bolt. But now the guy at the hardware store told me that stainless steel bolt in steel caliper could actually make it easier to rust. Don't know why.

I thought the old black bolt was stainless. Is it not? At the ahrdware store the only hex M8 1.00 they had was untreated black steel. Shouldn't it be at least galvanized? The existing bolts are steel, since they are magnetic.

Since I can't talk to the guy at the local workshop until Monday, I'm gathering as much information and knowledge as possible. Thanks for sharing it. :)
 
Sorry Marp yet another "educational expense". IMHO no helicoils on brake calipers. No torque wrench (or spec) is a substitute for common sense. You know that now but I sure get tired of seeing parts ruined............. You see an odd spec do a little checking to see if it's real or a typo. There are a few high torque apps on the XS and elsewhere GOOD manuals make a point of stating yes this is a high torque bolt etc.

View attachment 62371

View attachment 62371

Standard torque specs any great deviation from these should be viewed with suspicion. Note this and my previous pic are from the FACTORY manual.

View attachment 62372

View attachment 62372

So, problem solved with stripped hole. Went with helicoil.

Regarding the specified torque, are the torque for the bridge bolt not a bit high still if you compare to the standard recommendations in the other image? 7,5-9,5 Kg-m seems high. That's for a 20 mm bolt size.
 
Good catch Marp, This never got fully resolved. Yes IMHO there is a problem with those torque numbers.

I think The manual's wording is very confusing.

Quote from 5twins
"That old type caliper is held together with 4 fasteners, two larger and two smaller ones. That's why two torque values are given, one for the big bolts and one for the little ones. No matter, they're both wrong and too high. If I run across a given torque value that just seems wrong, I go with the standard for that bolt size. If it's threading into alloy, I might even use a bit less than the standard." end quote.

Found this in an RD service manual I think it's the same caliper.....

rd Caliper bolt specs.png


:shrug:

The mystery remains.



rd Caliper bolt specs.png
 
What they call the hexagon head bolts are the allen bolts.

The bridge bolts are the larger bolts, one is a "stud".
 
IMHO some of the difference is that the "standard" torque specs assume an aluminum casting. The calipers are iron which should take the higher torque. I have one apart now will use the toque wrench and see how those specs feel to me..... I need to clean up the "bridge bolt holes" with a tap, one is not running in cleanly.
 
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