NOOB help me!! - Clutch pedal loose, slipped clutch, 81 xs650 special

[wrongnumber]

Hi all first post took my '81 xs650 special out for its second run after buying it of craigslist yesterday, I had added about 1/3 cup of slick50 today, and went riding, long story short, clutch pedal went wonky slipping up and down when stepped on and feels like little to no tension on cable when pulled.

To make mattters worse it seems like the bolt that should have been on the foot pedal assembly holding onto the clutch "rod"? is AWOL. the clutch arm is loosely rotating on the rod. I abandoned her sadly about 15 mins from my house on a secluded road, seems to be stuck in first gear.

Question how the heck is the foot pedal supposed to attach? I bought a 5M 25mm long threaded bolt thinking it would fit and thread it tight together, it does mostly fit but did not snug onto the second half of the threading, do I need a nut at the bottom side? Do you think the clutch rod could be stripped?

Also, I was going to change the oil out on the side of the road, but I didn't realize I needed such a large socket.

Help with suggestions?

 

[XSJoel]

Oil additives and certain oils are terrible for bikes. Whenever you use them you have to think of the clutch. Always use bike specific oil. Nothing like having to rebuild a clutch do to the wrong oil.

As for the large socket, I still have to original tool kit that came with the bike, believe it's a 27MM you need.

As for the shifter, it's just the bolt, no nut. It may not be there because it got stripped out. Take the lever off and inspect it. Go from there.

 

[wrongnumber]

Thanks, I went out and bought Castrol 20/50 synthetic (car) oil will that do? Now to locate a 27 mm, probably will take half a day off of work to figure out if I can just swap oil and secure the pedal to see if that will do, and go from there, if I can't fix the pedal issue I'm going to have to tow it to a bike shop, not looking forward to this extra expense.

 

[XSJoel]

You don't have a friend with a truck? Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get a 2 by 8 and go get it yourself.

I am not sure about the oil. I know for a fact that the Castrol with the friction modifiers is NOT for bikes. I always just buy bike lube.

 

[XSLeo]

Is your bike stock? The stock bikes don't have a clutch pedal. The pedal on the left is the shifter, the clutch is the lever on the left handle bar.
The oil in the engine is used by the transmission and clutch as well as the engine. The Slick 50 is bad for the clutch. Use a plain dino oil. The synth oils are too costly to change every 1000 miles. A 20w50 car oil is ok if you can find it. A 15w40 deisel oil works, A motorcycle specific oil with a 20w40 or 20w50 is good. The 10w40 oils are too light and are for the water cooled bikes.
On the socket I found them cheapest at the TSC farm store. A 1 1/16 regular socket works too.
Leo

 

[wrongnumber]

Yeah its stock, wrong terminology, left foot shifter was stripped, threading on the rod connected through the clutch is fine thank heavens, I've ordered a bunch of parts through the XS650Direct (site for Canada) and was really inexpensive compared to the yamaha motorbike dealer $13.50 for a foot shifter assembly vs. $50 from dealer. The oil drain plugs were seized, I've lubed them and waiting to see if they loosened up yet, getting new drain plugs as well, got a cheap 1 1/16" socket from Lordco parts for a couple bucks. Just waiting on parts to arrive, I ended up having it towed to a bike shop though.

Appreciate the help gentlemen.

 

[wrongnumber]

So I got bad news from the bike shop, there were metal flakes in my oil and the transmission looks in bad shape, they recommended finding another engine to put in it. Clutch is fine though. I'm dissappointed that I only got to ride twice on it. I guess I'm looking for some advise, should I part it out, sell it for scrap or find another engine or try to find storage to pull it apart myself, although I'm not a mechanic I can do okay on fixing stuff.

 

[5twins]

Well, it's quite common on these for the front cam chain guide to wear out. Then you may see flakes in your oil. This usually doesn't kill the motor but you should replace that front guide (usually the cam chain too). That would involve a topend teardown. This is a common problem because these bikes are so old so if you get a different motor, there's a good chance it will need a front guide as well.

 

[XSLeo]

If you find a good engine the swap will let you ride. If you like it well enough you can rebuild the engine you now have. Or just keep the new engine in it.
These engines are not real complicated. Fairly easy to repair. With a good repair manual, rebuilding the engine is just a matter of following the steps.
Tear down, inspect to decide just what needs to be fixed, order the parts and reassemble.
Maybe do a few mods like elephant foot valve adjusters, clean up the casting marks in the head, performance cam, bigger pistons, maybe 750 kit just to name a few easy mods.
Leo

 

[wrongnumber]

So I bought myself a manual, tore down the engine down to splitting the crankcase and checked it all out, no damage apart from the flakes at the bottom of the engine, cleaned it out and put it back together, positioned camshaft back at markings for top dead center coinciding with the alternator marking TDC.

Didn't touch the carburators at all so that hasn't changed

Tried turning it over sounds close to it but labored and to no avail, couldn't get it running. Everything is same except 20-50W oil, not sure what was in there before. Gas wouldn't have turned bad yet I don't think?

Any suggestions?

 

[XSLeo]

On the cam shaft as you look at it from the left side there is a notch on the boss the sprocket sets against. When the timing marks are at TDC the notch goes straight up.
Looking at the cam from the right, there is a dimple out by the teeth on the sprocket, At TDC this dimple is to the rear of the engine and flush with the sealing surface of the head where te rocker box sets.
It's easy to set the cam wrong. If you set it with the dimple up and the notch flush, the cam will be out 90 degrees. The first time I did a rebuild I set it wrong.
I was lucky and nothing got hurt. Just reset the cam right and everything was fine.
To check if the cam is right, open the cover over the advancer, right side of engine. Now roll the engine to TDC. The pin in the cam that the advancer goes over should point straight up or down. If it points straight left or right the cam is 90 out.
Leo

 

[wrongnumber]

That's what the problem seems to be from my memory I'll take the top off to confirm the out of 90. The manual was weak with an as detailed explanation. Thanks!
Can that be done from on the bike? I'd hate to tear it off the frame again.

 

[wrongnumber]

XSLeo that did the trick!!!! Got it running!! Now I seem to have an issue with the clutch worm seems like the nut is securely afixed to the bolt no amount of lube will get it to unjam just short of stripping the screw head. There was an extra little ball bearing sitting at the outer edge of the worm I can't close the side cover with the ball in place either with the worm, put aside the second ball bearing. Perhaps I mis-installed the clutch assembly I didn't see any alignment register holes anywhere but I was perhaps tired and missed it. Should I drain the oil and take off the right hand side and check it out?

 

[wrongnumber]

My clutch adjuster is no longer adjustable. I took off the right side again to double check the clutch assembly have the register lining up with the right bolts. I guess the next step is to order a new adjuster and give it a go. Anybody have experience rethreading the crankcase holes? Tap and die set maybe? A few on the the right side are stripping my allen bolts. Trying to keep my spirits up on this any kind helpful words of wisdom greatly appreciated.

 

[XSLeo]

Often the nut gets over tightened by a PM. As in Previous Moron. You can remove the worm from the sidecover, it just unthreads after unhooking the spring. Carefully hold the worm in a vise with padding around the worm, then unscrew the nut.
Mike's does have a replacement unit. It has two holes in the arm where the cable hooks on. The hole out at the end lets the lever pull easier, the holes closer to the worm opens the pressure plate more. This helps with clutch drag, making it easier to find neutral.
On rethreading the case holes, a tap can clean up whats there. If stripped badly you may need to use a thread restore kit. There are several out there. They come with a stainless steel insert and the reguired parts to drill out the hole and install the inserts.
Leo

 

[wrongnumber]

Thanks Leo, I ended up getting a new assembly worm from xs650direct, as well as a tap and die, which fixed the thread issue. Put it in and adjusted according to several places on the web. Screwed cable at handle all the way in, then went to worm adjuster screw and turned till met the clutchrod and turned back a 1/8th turn and locked the bolt. Went back up to handlebar adjustment turned it out a little bit.
However with the right engine case open the clutch barely moved out at all, maybe a 1/16th of an inch?, and my fears were realized when I put it back together that the clutch handle lever would not disengage the gears/put it in neutral while in gear (handlebar lever squeezed the bike wouldn't roll when pushed around). Is it possible the clutch is being sticky? maybe a short ride around the block might free it up?

I am going to look at the clutch assembly again this weekend to look for some clues as to why it doesn't disengage the clutch, but I'm hoping someone can offer suggestions? Also I just did some reading about the oil needing to be 20/40w I put in 20/50w (recommended on mikexs) its been unseasonably cool the last few days that may be sticking the clutch? I will drain and put new 20/40 in and try again.

 

[XSLeo]

I had my clutch all apart several times. Once while apart I did some checking.to see just how much the pressure plate moves when the lever is pulled.
I put together a temporary clutch actuator so I could push the clutch push rod with out the left cover on.
I measured he amount the push rod comes out of the engine case with the clutch assembled. With just two springs on the clutch, any more and my cobbed up lever wouldn't push the clutch open.
With just the two springs I pished the clutch open to where the springs were completely compressed, the coils of the springs touched. I then measured the push rod again. The difference was about 4.5 mm. I then put the left side cover on and adjusted the clutch. Pulled the clutch, measured and it it was about 3.5 to 4 mm. I then pulled off the springs, put the right side cover on then pushed the rod till the pressure plate hit the right side cover. Measured and got about 5.5 mm.
So with the clutch assembled and adjusted properly it won't open the pressure plate more than 4 mm. Thats a bit over 1/8 inch.
You can adjust the worm and lever a bit tighter, as long as it won't slip when hot it will be ok.
The way the clutch is designed it will never be totally drag free. So lever puleed in gear engine off it will be hard to push around. Just put it inneutral. As long as when you have the bike running, in gear, lever pulled it doesn't try to creep forward.
On the oil I don't think you will notice much difference between a 20w50 and 20w40. Once the engine starts and warms up a bit they are pretty much the same. I run the 20w50 just fine. In the cooler temps, like below 40 I run a deisel 15w40, starts a bit easier.

 

[wrongnumber]

Leo thanks again for the detailed info, it helps tons. I ended up putting it up on blocks and readjusted the clutch adjuster and handle adjustment, seems the clutch just needed to be played around with some more until the back wheel stopped spinning while in the air, however took her for a spin around the city and the clutch still seems to slightly engage and hard to drop into neutral and I had to extend the handle adjustment plenty more when she warmed up almost to the end of the bolt. I'll play around with the clutch adjusters some more to see if I can hit the sweet spot. She feels mostly ride ready except getting the gears to engage smoothly. I would have had her out longer but its wet out.

 

[wrongnumber]

Had it trickle charged Fri night - Sat am. so it was fully charged up yesterday, (on a new battery when I bought the bike last month) Went to start it up today after riding it around yesterday, just 24hours ago, and I'm met with backfires aplenty today and poor idling and generally not keeping turned over. I'm confused about what's going on.

 

[jamesgs4]

what is your voltage at while it is backfiring?