Oil in the Combustion Chamber

RCGRT

XS650 Addict
Messages
185
Reaction score
5
Points
16
Does anyone have any ideas how oil could be getting into my combustion chamber? I have had this motor apart and back together 3 times now. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. Fresh valve job on the head, new guides, seals, and seats re-cut. So I see it very unlikely that it is the seals. This time around, somehow the rings got toasted, after about, roughly 2-3 hours of run time, maybe 4 or 5 hours at the most. The ring gap is like .06 ish, just an eyeball measurement, but way OUT. I've been told that I was running WAY rich, and washed the rings from oil, in turn premature wear. In any event, from the beginning it seemed I was getting oil up there. Maybe it was just a very rich mixture at first and I thought it was oil.... I'm lost
Any help, thoughts, advice much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3881.jpg
    IMG_3881.jpg
    239.1 KB · Views: 241
  • IMG_3879.jpg
    IMG_3879.jpg
    269.3 KB · Views: 287
  • IMG_3878.jpg
    IMG_3878.jpg
    242.6 KB · Views: 294
Your head gasket looks to be wet with oil, between the 2 cylinders. I'd say the engine is sucking oil from the camchain tunnel.

Perhaps the head or cylinder mating surfaces are not flat, so there is poor alinement when mated together.

Are you torquing the studs in the correct order and correct amount of torque?

Edit: Most guys run a small bead of 3bond1104 (or similar) around the camchain tunnel and the 4 outer studs. The sealant goes on both sides of the head gasket.
 
Your head gasket looks to be wet with oil, between the 2 cylinders. I'd say the engine is sucking oil from the camchain tunnel.

Perhaps the head or cylinder mating surfaces are not flat, so there is poor alinement when mated together.

Are you torquing the studs in the correct order and correct amount of torque?

Edit: Most guys run a small bead of 3bond1104 (or similar) around the camchain tunnel and the 4 outer studs. The sealant goes on both sides of the head gasket.

The Head, and cylinder face are flat with-in about .001, I just checked them yesterday, thinking the same thing. I thought the same thing about the oil coming from the cam chain valley, but the only argument I have with that, is if oil is coming in, I would think compression would be blowing evidence back out, and aside from oil, the two faces look clean. I was planning on using some sealant when I go back with it for sure this time. Just to help rule that out.

I've been using 32 ft lbs, did it like 4 times during the first few heat cycles, using the recommended sequence.
 
With that much oil present in the cylinders, you would certainly see puffs of black smoke coming out the exhaust.

Perhaps you are not installing the oil control rings correctly. Follow the Yamaha Service Manual.

Are the valve stem seals the correct seals?
 
With that much oil present in the cylinders, you would certainly see puffs of black smoke coming out the exhaust.

Perhaps you are not installing the oil control rings correctly. Follow the Yamaha Service Manual.

Are the valve stem seals the correct seals?

I was definitely seeing white smoke, indicating burning oil, very obvious on start up, and evident with a handful of throttle. I'm 99% sure the oil rings are installed correctly, the corrugated rings were not overlapped, and the two that hold it in were spaced opposite from each other.

On the valve stem seals, I can't really say other than trust the shop that did the valve job. However it is a highly reputable shop know on this forum for excellent work. I doubt it is the valve seals. Also, on the seals, this is the 3rd time, the two prior I did the work myself, and the seals were new, and felt good. I thought it was the seals / guides the first time I pulled it apart, which is why I decided to do a full valve job on it.
 
A leak down test should indicate where the problem is.

I'll have to do some reading on that one. I've heard lots about it, but never done it before. However it would be nice to locate the problem before I put it back together.
 
Retiredgentleman is spot on - you have oil ingress between head gasket and joint faces. Last year I took mine apart six times (yep, six times) until on the last I used Three Bond - success.

ThreeBond is the best - non-synthetic, rubber-based. Perfect. Torque to 30lbs and re-torque.

ANLAF
 
Retiredgentleman is spot on - you have oil ingress between head gasket and joint faces. Last year I took mine apart six times (yep, six times) until on the last I used Three Bond - success.

ThreeBond is the best - non-synthetic, rubber-based. Perfect. Torque to 30lbs and re-torque.

ANLAF

If that's really all that it is, that would be awesome. I was planning on using Honda Bond (because I already have some), when I go back with everything.
Thanks for the input. Would be super if that solved my mystery. Still doesn't explain why my rings wound up with a 1/16" gap though. I've got new rings on the way, I'll gap them myself, and hopefully I get better luck this time.
 
Okay this may seem like a lot to absorb in one post but ...

Obviously someone's aftermarket high compression pistons . I'm sure the pistons came with installation instructions that are all too often ignored because someone has been doing this for years and knows better . I'm going to assume a bunch of things based on just what I see so I'm as likely wrong as the next guy so consider that my only disclaimer .
The rings appear to be coated or plated . This could be electrofusion chrome or molybdenum .These require specific bore finishes drastically different from cast iron rings and initial ring end gaps that are not even similar .
First the piston has to stabilize the rings by not sticking or rattling in the bore . A cast or hypercutic piston requires far less running clearance than a forged piston because of reduced thermal expansion . Now to get to that running clearance you begin with a bore that only gets close enough that the tool marks from the bore are completely removed by the honing process . Much like polishing the process is done in stages . Remove all the marks from the previous grade to arrive at finished bore size . For cast rings the final finish is much coarser than for chrome or molly rings . Again refer to the manufacturer of the rings for specific finish . Too fine a finish for cast rings and they will never seat or break in . Too coarse a finish for coated rings and they will quickly be torn up in the first few heat cycles . The latter is what I am assuming happened to your rings as evidenced by the vertical scoring in the bore . Simply honing the scratches out with the proper stone and crosshatch angle may not be enough of a fix because at this point removing all the damage may increase the running clearance to the point where the piston may no longer be stable let alone be within the manufactures installation tolerances .
You are correct in observing that the ring end gap in the pic is big enough to see big screen TV through . Now you have to determine why based on the above .
As for the head gasket I would never use silicone of any kind , shape , or description on the head gasket parting line when using a composition head gasket . The temperatures there will turn it to garbage in short order . The only thing I use when I use it is the spray versions of Hylomar or red aviation Hi-Tack . I'll add that there is such a thing as too smooth a finish on the head and block mating surfaces . The head gasket will grab on and seal to a moderate surface texture/finish where it will move on a relatively polished surface while allowing fluids to seep past even a correctly torqued and within tolerances , flat , parting line .

I suggest you have a look at the bore finish and diameter recommended for your pistons and rings .
I also suggest that you do a bit of research into the surface finish required by not only head gaskets similar to your own but look at the possibility of a copper head gasket . My experience with copper is it requires more frequent inspection and service but I consider that a good thing .
Your advanced investigation should be into using clay or a chamber cast to determine what your piston to head clearance is while the engine is apart . One of the keys to getting these engines to really work is adequate quench area and clearance .
I've given you a little (sic) to think about without being too subjective while providing not only a small amount of my own experience but attempting to point you in the right direction . I'll leave the rest up to you .
Should you really draw blanks after completing your homework and investigations I'm not that hard to find . Be warned however that I am a bit of a taskmaster , don't suffer fools well or at all , have a predilection towards profane outbursts , not easily offended but am described as offensive and generally find some way to solve it problem .

~kop
 
Last edited:
Okay this may seem like a lot to absorb in one post but ...

Obviously someone's aftermarket high compression pistons . I'm sure the pistons came with installation instructions that are all too often ignored because someone has been doing this for years and knows better . I'm going to assume a bunch of things based on just what I see so I'm as likely wrong as the next guy so consider that my only disclaimer .
The rings appear to be coated or plated . This could be electrofusion chrome or molybdenum .These require specific bore finishes drastically different from cast iron rings and initial ring end gaps that are not even similar .
First the piston has to stabilize the rings by not sticking or rattling in the bore . A cast or hypercutic piston requires far less running clearance than a forged piston because of reduced thermal expansion . Now to get to that running clearance you begin with a bore that only gets close enough that the tool marks from the bore are completely removed by the honing process . Much like polishing the process is done in stages . Remove all the marks from the previous grade to arrive at finished bore size . For cast rings the final finish is much coarser than for chrome or molly rings . Again refer to the manufacturer of the rings for specific finish . Too fine a finish for cast rings and they will never seat or break in . Too coarse a finish for coated rings and they will quickly be torn up in the first few heat cycles . The latter is what I am assuming happened to your rings as evidenced by the vertical scoring in the bore . Simply honing the scratches out with the proper stone and crosshatch angle may not be enough of a fix because at this point removing all the damage may increase the running clearance to the point where the piston may no longer be stable let alone be within the manufactures installation tolerances .
You are correct in observing that the ring end gap in the pic is big enough to see big screen TV through . Now you have to determine why based on the above .
As for the head gasket I would never use silicone of any kind , shape , or description on the head gasket parting line when using a composition head gasket . The temperatures there will turn it to garbage in short order . The only thing I use when I use it is the spray versions of Hylomar or red aviation Hi-Tack . I'll add that there is such a thing as too smooth a finish on the head and block mating surfaces . The head gasket will grab on and seal to a moderate surface texture/finish where it will move on a relatively polished surface while allowing fluids to seep past even a correctly torqued and within tolerances , flat , parting line .

I suggest you have a look at the bore finish and diameter recommended for your pistons and rings .
I also suggest that you do a bit of research into the surface finish required by not only head gaskets similar to your own but look at the possibility of a copper head gasket . My experience with copper is it requires more frequent inspection and service but I consider that a good thing .
Your advanced investigation should be into using clay or a chamber cast to determine what your piston to head clearance is while the engine is apart . One of the keys to getting these engines to really work is adequate quench area and clearance .
I've given you a little (sic) to think about without being too subjective while providing not only a small amount of my own experience but attempting to point you in the right direction . I'll leave the rest up to you .
Should you really draw blanks after completing your homework and investigations I'm not that hard to find . Be warned however that I am a bit of a taskmaster , don't suffer fools well or at all , have a predilection towards profane outbursts , not easily offended but am described as offensive and generally find some way to solve it problem .

~kop

Excellent. First off, thanks for taking time out to write all of that. Great info.

The first time I put it together, I attempted to do most of the work myself, with minimal equipment / tooling. Seemed to have ridiculous compression, but fired and ran, in short order (a few hours of run time) I saw obvious signs of oil making it's way into the combustion chamber. Tore it down, and saw some pretty nasty scuffing in the thrust area of the both cylinders, pistons didn't look too bad, and the ring gaps were pretty much the same as when I installed them.

Second attempt, sent the pistons, cylinders, and head off to a known professional. I was told that I had too small of piston / bore clearance, and had I kept running, it probably would have seized. He opened the cylinders up with the hone to remove some of the scoring, said I was still with-in spec to use the same pistons. I believe at this point we are talking like .004" total clearance piston to finished bore. Put it all back together, with in a few laps around the block, same results. Seemed to be oil in the combustion chamber. He also did a full valve job on the head.

Third attempt. I pulled the top end off, and could not come up with a solid reason as to what could be going on. So rather that go thru it again, I sent the entire motor off... He said he hit the cylinders again with the hone, just touched them, piston / bore clearance now about .005

And here I am, less than a full day on the motor, and obviously from those pictures, things are not good. I now have it apart, looking for reasons, why did my rings wear so bad? Where was the oil coming from?

Known facts.

-From the beginning, I've been using a set of brand new lectron crabs, which I have been told by many, that they have been running very rich. I've also been told that could be the reason the rings are not seating properly.
I have at this point ruled them out by switching back to stock carbs

-I know that both of the conn rods are worn at the wrist pins, one is almost .003" total clearance over the pin. I don't know if that can be a factor in my problem, I realize it is not good, but not so sure it is causing my problem.

-Piston to bore clearance best I can measure is around .0055 ish total depending on where I measure, the cylinders are not so round. There is obvious scuffing in the thrust area. The cylinders measure about .0008 larger front to back vs side to side.

-The pistons are forged JE 81mm

I can measure the surface finish on the cylinders if that helps, but I'm trying to trust that the shop that did the work....did good work.

It makes more sense that an amateur such as myself is overlooking something or making a mistake, rather that a shop that builds motors for a living has done wrong.

I did notice last night a very thin "crack" looking thing right above my intake valve on the head, like within a 1/16" or so from the outer edge of the valve. I can see it on both sides, but one side looks more like a crack, the other just looks like a flaw in the head... Don't know if that could be anything, but I did see it.

If any of that helps direct me to my problem let me know.
Thanks again!
 
I think a call to J&E is in order as they specify a minimum of .0025 clearance up to 3.6"
I can't see where .0055 is doing you any good . I'd ask them for specific fit and finish for the rings supplied with the pistons . I mean who would know better ?

~kop
 
I think a call to J&E is in order as they specify a minimum of .0025 clearance up to 3.6"
I can't see where .0055 is doing you any good . I'd ask them for specific fit and finish for the rings supplied with the pistons . I mean who would know better ?

~kop

Agreed.
I just realized something. Lets say my rings were gapped at .015. The bore is just under 3.170
3.170x3.14=9.954
9.954-.015 gap =9.939
9.939/3.14=3.165 diameter
9.954-.08 current gap=9.874
9.874/3.14=3.145 diameter
3.165-3.145=.02 wear or .01 wear per side
Seems like a lot... fine
however, my old rings that have about a .015 gap,
Measure right at .124-.125 wall (od to id, one side)
My current ring with a .08 gap, same wall thickness,
Right at .124-.125
You would think the ring with a .08 gap should measure about .01 less across the wall. But they are in fact the same. This leads me to believe the rings were gapped too big at the last assembly. Meaning, a possible cause for oil leakage thru the large ring gaps, and that means I didnt for some crazy reason wear a set of rings out within a few hours of riding. Which is a good thing. My math might be way off. My theory might be way off. But im just trying to reason with what makes the most sense. Also. What would be the chances that all 4 of my top rings would wear the same amount. Because the gap on both top rings, both cylinders is very close to the same...
 
It may be time to take a step back and review this build.
Your ring gap sounds about right for an 80mm bore.
Your current bore diameter is 80.5mm.
You report using 81mm pistons.

It may help to remeasure everything and notate those dimensions in both metric and inch...
 
It may be time to take a step back and review this build.
Your ring gap sounds about right for an 80mm bore.
Your current bore diameter is 80.5mm.
You report using 81mm pistons.

It may help to remeasure everything and notate those dimensions in both metric and inch...

Ha, yeah that wouldn't quite fit now would it. I'm not sure why I was thinking 81mm, but the bore is just under 3.170. The pistons are second over 80mm.
I generally do everything in inches, and convert if needed
Now when you say my ring gap sounds ok, to which gap number are you referring?
Thanks for the input
 
If your current ring gap is 0.080" in a 80.5mm bore, then stick those rings in a 80mm bore, the gap would shrink by pi × 0.5mm, and become 0.018", close to appropriate for a 80mm bore.
 
RCGRT

Good luck with the fault-finding strip-down. While you are there just make sure you did not accidentally put in one or more of those piston rings in upside down - a sure-fire way of dragging oil into the combustion chamber. Remember: numbers always upwards!

ANLAF
 
If your current ring gap is 0.080" in a 80.5mm bore, then stick those rings in a 80mm bore, the gap would shrink by pi × 0.5mm, and become 0.018", close to appropriate for a 80mm bore.

That makes sense. However, I don't think the bore was ever down to 80mm, if memory serves me ok, I want to say the original bore was around 3.165 (80.39mm) 80mm second over it was called. All I'm getting at here is, from what I see of the rings I just pulled out of there, they seem to have been gapped around .08 (I measured it last night).
The rings I just pulled out .08 gap, vs my old rings from my last attempt .015 gap, measure the same across the wall, right at .124.
Two things,
You would think the "worn" ring .08 gap would have lost about .01 per side to open up that much. But they measure the same as a ring with a .015 gap
How likely is it that those rings wore that much in just a few hours of run time? and all wore the same amount?
Maybe I'm just being optimistic here, but just trying to look at what makes the most sense.
 
RCGRT

Good luck with the fault-finding strip-down. While you are there just make sure you did not accidentally put in one or more of those piston rings in upside down - a sure-fire way of dragging oil into the combustion chamber. Remember: numbers always upwards!

ANLAF

Good note. I did note the orientation of the rings as I removed them, and they were all facing numbers UP...
 
I think somebody overgapped your rings, or just stuck 80mm rings in there, that'll pump oil. Piston/bore clearance of 0.0055" is too much, even for forged pistons, they'll flutter and pump oil. Also, rings like round holes. You report 0.0008" out-of-round in the cylinder. Rings can't seal to that kind of oval, they'll pump oil. Lastly, max wristpin clearance is about 0.0015", you report 0.003", way too (rattly) much. That won't last very long...
 
Back
Top