Question about a "fussy first"...

[TeeCat]

Hi, guys...

I have been reading a lot on here, and at the Garage, about XS/TX650 clutches and transmissions, especially the threads in our Tech section here. I am aware of the inherent problems in this clutch and transmission cited in the articles, such as the clutch's propensity to engage quickly with no shock mitigation, very short friction area, etc.. However, I was wondering how much tolerance you all allow your bikes trannies for occasionally kloogy performance because they are old, and because, design-wise, "they are what they are".

My bike, for instance, does not slip, seems to shift up and down very well (though the "feel" at the foot shifter is "vague" compared to, say, my quarter-liter Ninja), and the short friction area is basically acceptable in that there is no discernible "drag" in first. My bike has a new/replacement actuator, fairly fresh cable, and a new perch and lever which I just installed.

Sometimes, though, I notice that first gear can be a little moody when shifting down to it. I'm reluctant to mess with the cable/clutch adjustment too much because, though first gear can very occasionally be "grabby" (referring to sudden engagement in the friction range) once or twice when cold (though it might be me letting out the clutch a little too fast, too), and downshifting to first can be fussy, performance is otherwise very good.

How much tolerance do you all allow for these little (mis)behaviors? Do you all think it's worth popping the right cover this winter just to have a look about, or am just inviting other possible issues, like oil leaks on that side? I have never been into the right side and am reluctant to have mere curiosity as a reason. With these bikes' trannies, what is a problem, and what is an idiosyncrasy?

Meanwhile, I'll keep reading and looking ate pics of the right side machinations.

Cheers!

TC

 

[Growl]

Yours sounds pretty good. In spite of your reluctance, adjusting the clutch and cable IS the way to improve the "first gear can be a little moody when shifting down" issue...

 

[littlebill31]

I have fiddled a lot with my clutch cable adjustment to see what was what. I don't do the normal adjustment of turning the worm gear 'til it grabs then back out 1/4 turn. I do the majority of my clutch adjustment with the worm gear. I set the freeplay at the hand lever to about 3/8" or 1/2" by using the worm gear screw, then final adjustment at the lever. It's actually a Minton Mod that 5twins suggested to me and it works well.
Sometimes I do have to adjust the perch a little, sometimes while riding, depending on the weather and engine temp.
My clutch is a little choppy sometimes, but only if I am too quick with it. I have a "sweet spot" that I try to shift at and always pull the clutch smoothly, and completely, in. I also shift "slowly". If I shift to fast or let the clutch out quickly it is quite choppy. But I think that is just the design. I've noticed that there is a small window for smooth operation with my clutch.

 

[blackbetty]

I have a direct mechanical operation with my foot clutch, so I can factor out the cable adjustment. Even still, my clutch operates exactly how you all are describing yours.

I think the best way to describe the XS tranny is "inconsistent".

I have the older 7 disc clutch pack, but I have upgraded the needle bearing and replaced all the friction discs. First gear with the foot clutch, quite frankly, sucks balls. It's super grabby and quick to stall, I've realized it takes the perfect ratio of clutch to throttle to get a smooth take off, and even still, I'm starting off pretty slow. You could take a seasoned jockey shifting greybeard and I bet he'd still kill my bike out of 1st.

Running through the gears at speed will sometimes take some coercion, esp getting into 3rd, and I've found that shifting fast and hard, and engaging the clutch 100% before applying throttle, really helps with the shifting.

The friction zone on these bikes is just terrible. I mean, it's like millimeters wide, and when you're dealing with a sensitive clutch using your booted foot, it takes a little getting used to. I watch hugh's videos of his foot clutch XS and it amazes me how simple it is for him to take off out of first...makes me think something's up with mine mechanically, but after tearing it down I found no broken parts

Teecat, pulling the right side cover is no big deal. I just use a new gasket with gasgacinch and have not had any leaks, even after pulling the damn thing off 3 separate times. Just remember to mesh the oil pump drive correctly when reinstalling the cover, meaning, don't force it! Also a good time to replace the copper washers under the cover screws, and if you're pulling the clutch, the shifter springs (also check shift shaft adjustment).

 

[Growl]

I used to subscribe to an XS650 email/forum where there was a lot of discussion about shifting into first... I find it helpful to downshift into first before I come to a dead stop.

 

[TeeCat]

Growl and Bill, thank you. This is very reassuring. Bill and blackbetty, your remarks ring especially true in my case, in that your bike's clutch behavior sounds a lot like mine in terms if release requirements and short friction area. I, too, have fiddled a lot with the clutch adjustment, at both ends, though when I installed my new perch and lever, I basically left the case end alone, and it's pretty good. I play with it at the perch as the op temp changes too.

The friction zone on these bikes is just terrible. I mean, it's like millimeters wide, and when you're dealing with a sensitive clutch using your booted foot, it takes a little getting used to...

Wow... BINGO!!

I was just concerned because I have seen guys' stories about shift shaft maladjustment, broken springs, misaligned star, etc., and it got me wondering. However, it seems to me that such maladjustment would be evident across all five gears, versus just an occasionally fussy first. It seems to do better if I'm very deliberate about pulling the lever all the way in to the bar when dropping to first, and also while still rolling.

Bill, you're especially right, I think, about that deliberateness and slowness that you have to have when shifting. Especially when accelerating fro ma stop in first, there is a very tiny "sweet spot", and she will punish you swiftly and sternly if you do it wrong. But doing it right is equally rewarding, because she pulls like living hell these days.

Hey... I don't feel so alone in this now! In feel a LOT better about it after asking. Thanks, guys!

TC

 

[blackbetty]

I replaced everything clutch related with the exception of the basket and the pressure plates to get it where it is today!

I'm just convinced that these XS clutches aren't very robust, and it's compounded by the fact that I've got it set up to be foot actuated.

 

[retiredgentleman]

My clutch and transmission shifting work great. Easy to shift up and down gears and easy to shift into first at any time. No problem to find neutral, but I have shortened the length of the worm gear operating arm.

I also re-adjust the the clutch lever free-play while I'm riding as the engine heats up.

 

[TeeCat]

blackbetty, your posts are especially reassuring, and by comparison, my bike's shifting sounds similar, except that her first gear might actually be a bit more forgiving once you learn what she wants. (Why are relationships with bikes so much like.. other... relationships... )

And thanks for the info on pulling the right cover, bb. Maybe I should have a peek this winter, just for the learning experience of it. I bought two sets of copper washers just in case.

Oh... and RG... I have gotten a LOT better at finding neutral, but there is a "trick"... just a touch of throttle with a little bit of upward boot.

TC

 

[TeeCat]

Incidentally, guys, I have a kind of a cute little story involving a curious little boy at the pumps the other day. He was just staring at me and the bike, wide eyed, as I filled the tank, and when I finally fired the bike up, he almost fell backward over his baggy jeans. It was too funny, and I'll have to remember to tell that story in my other thread. This little kid's facial expressions and mannerisms were just funny as hell.

TC

 

[littlebill31]

I also re-adjust the the clutch lever free-play while I'm riding as the engine heats up.

This, as I stated before, is something that happens quite a lot with me on very warm days. I don't have to adjust it much, but have to. I also think my lock nut on the perch is not so good, even though new, and allows the perch adjustment to back out a little with use.
I can shift perfect as long as I am not "banging" thru the gears. Nice and smooth.
Now, I can do this quickly to race around, but I need to do it smoothly,lol. Or it sounds like I am missing gears.
Neutral is ok to get into, but I shift down to first then lightly into neutral while rolling. If I'm at a dead stop I have to apply upward pressure and slip the clutch out just a tad 'til it pops in.
I believe the '70s-'80s KZ Kawasaki clutch perch/lever replacement (5twins) might help this.

 

[gggGary]

Guess I am lucky, I have not really noticed any issues "out of normal range" with my 650 clutches. I think if my clutch were acting "hair trigger" I would look at wear notches in the basket from the clutch plate fingers I see there is a tech on smoothing the notches out.
I had a Shadow that had a touchy clutch but I ended up laying that at the feet of idle and off idle carb issues. A richened up idle might improve the torque available to launch the bike into motion. Some that is where the old "no substitute for cubic inches" saying comes from. Big displacement and a lot of rotating mass makes clutch engagement easier.
One good reason to remove the RH cover is to check the drive line cush springs in the back of the clutch basket they are frequently found broken. That may affect clutch "feel" too.

 

[TeeCat]

Guess I am lucky, I have not really noticed any issues "out of normal range" with my 650 clutches. I think if my clutch were acting "hair trigger" I would look at wear notches in the basket from the clutch plate fingers I see there is a tech on smoothing the notches out.
I had a Shadow that had a touchy clutch but I ended up laying that at the feet of idle and off idle carb issues. A richened up idle might improve the torque available to launch the bike into motion. Some that is where the old "no substitute for cubic inches" saying comes from. Big displacement and a lot of rotating mass makes clutch engagement easier.
One good reason to remove the RH cover is to check the drive line cush springs in the back of the clutch basket they are frequently found broken. That may affect clutch "feel" too.

Good tips, Gary, thanks!

I think the thing that had me puzzled is the fact that the behavior in first is intermittent. If I really control the clutch lever diligently, leaving is smooth as silk; knock on wood, in four years, I have never stalled this bike with the clutch.

Still, I'm tempted to have a peek inside the right cover this winter. Not sure I want to venture into the clutch just yet for this, though, since these "symptoms" seem to be more a rule than an exception, based on folks experiences in this thread.

TC

 

[650Dave]

Your clutch sounds pretty good. As far as shifting up (NOT down), I frequently don't use the clutch at all from 2nd to 5th. I have found that with the revs up and accelerating briskly, though not at full throttle, the shifts are quick and very smooth. Takes a bit of practice, but it's not hard. Snick vroom, snick vroom. Dave

 

[TeeCat]

Your clutch sounds pretty good. As far as shifting up (NOT down), I frequently don't use the clutch at all from 2nd to 5th. I have found that with the revs up and accelerating briskly, though not at full throttle, the shifts are quick and very smooth. Takes a bit of practice, but it's not hard. Snick vroom, snick vroom. Dave

Dave, I have found what you are saying to be the case as well. I use the clutch lever, still, but my bike shifts both up and down with a very slight pull on the lever, except for dropping to first, which will sometimes hang in neutral if I'm not deliberate, or rolling a bit.

TC

 

[jamesgs4]

I have the older 7 disc clutch pack, but I have upgraded the needle bearing and replaced all the friction discs. First gear with the foot clutch, quite frankly, sucks balls. It's super grabby and quick to stall, I've realized it takes the perfect ratio of clutch to throttle to get a smooth take off, and even still, I'm starting off pretty slow. You could take a seasoned jockey shifting greybeard and I bet he'd still kill my bike out of 1st.
The friction zone on these bikes is just terrible. I mean, it's like millimeters wide, and when you're dealing with a sensitive clutch using your booted foot, it takes a little getting used to. I watch hugh's videos of his foot clutch XS and it amazes me how simple it is for him to take off out of first...makes me think something's up with mine mechanically, but after tearing it down I found no broken parts

You should take a look at your lever ratio or pedal length. My direct link foot clutch is easy as pie to use and I even run a 18-30 sprocket combo. I use a factory brake pedal and my friction zone is around 1 inch at the pedal.

 

[yamaman]

i take it you all are blipping the throttle on downshifts, this will greatly assist changes. also, not just a indiscriminate blip, but a blip that brings the revs up to the required revs for the gear about to be engaged. just like a roadranger (or crash) gearbox. engine revs must match road speed. cheers ☻

 

[TeeCat]

i take it you all are blipping the throttle on downshifts, this will greatly assist changes. also, not just a indiscriminate blip, but a blip that brings the revs up to the required revs for the gear about to be engaged. just like a roadranger (or crash) gearbox. engine revs must match road speed. cheers ☻

I actually need to practice that more. I wish, now, that I had started to make it a habit when I first started riding.

TC

 

[gggGary]

Funny how we tend to leave out what seems obvious to us. I am so damned old (and cheap) that I learned to drive in non synchro first gear cars, in those days you HAD to have proper technique. I can't remember the last time I had to double clutch a stick though.

 

[yamaman]

i double declutch for a living (or more often, no clutch). same technique applys when up shifting, while a blip is not used, the instant of a up shift should be the same instant that the engine speed drops to the right road speed. i hope this makes sense and is not confusing the issue! cheers