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Replacing cam chain Tensioner gasket XS650B
- Thread starter Orion61
- Start date
Orion61
XS650 Addict
I am a little bit confused because everything I had seen before the chart above was 30-35# for the 10mm
head bolts? your chart says 25#? I am respectfully asking, why?
I really think that it is the lower cylinder gasket that is leaking. I was in the building for a couple minutes but the light is horrible and
the washers LOOK Brass I can't really tell because the whole motor is kind of tarnished, plus I didn't have a flashlight. I tried to upload a short video but it wouldn't let me..
head bolts? your chart says 25#? I am respectfully asking, why?
I really think that it is the lower cylinder gasket that is leaking. I was in the building for a couple minutes but the light is horrible and
the washers LOOK Brass I can't really tell because the whole motor is kind of tarnished, plus I didn't have a flashlight. I tried to upload a short video but it wouldn't let me..
Copper washers always feel like something is stripping to me. Hollow aluminum banjo fittings with two copper washer and a hollow steel bolt going into aluminum...
It is regarded the Yamaha Torque figures are to low for the head and 30-35 flb is used.
Orion61
XS650 Addict
FIXED!!!! Thank you xj, 3g, Michaelo, 5Twins, Leak is GONE! I replaced the old gasket and that did it.
The bolts were almost finger tight! Also there wasn't a gasket for the cap so I made one, but It looks like the bike got cold then hot and with the bolts so loose
the gasket popped. it was hard as a rock so I scraped what I could then sanded the rest with emery on a flat board. a lite film of grease on both surfaces and
Leak is NO MORE, So...... here is where we are so far, You guys helped me boil out and clean/polish the carbs, It is a bit cold blooded but it will idle at 1200 or 1300 rpl. Tank has been Kreme Koated. You helped me get my handle bars solid in the grommets again, I have a wire schematic now and am making headway there, it is charging great, headlight Tail and Brake lights AND Speedo indicator lights all working, Left side flashers are working, Right are still dead.. but it is a long winter ahead. Petcocks are clean,
The fuel leak is gone (1st time in 24 years of ownership) Front brake is clean, flushed and working great, Clutch is adjusted with no "grabbies" in gear, plus no slipping.... throttle cables free and lubed, new Levers. To Do list, includes Front seals, rear sway bushings and rod being replaced with new and bearings instead of bushings. I am putting shortees on it i have them bought and they add a nice rumble to the bike! Once those are done new decals, a bit of ding work on the tank, I don't think I am going back to the Sparkle Black, but that bike should look great
either Aqua, Saphire Sparkle, or Ruby Red Candy, The Gold decals should really pop with any of those.
Thank you guys! NO WAY I would have gotten this all done without your help.....
Larry Duane Beach...Cousin Larry does nicely.....
The bolts were almost finger tight! Also there wasn't a gasket for the cap so I made one, but It looks like the bike got cold then hot and with the bolts so loose
the gasket popped. it was hard as a rock so I scraped what I could then sanded the rest with emery on a flat board. a lite film of grease on both surfaces and
Leak is NO MORE, So...... here is where we are so far, You guys helped me boil out and clean/polish the carbs, It is a bit cold blooded but it will idle at 1200 or 1300 rpl. Tank has been Kreme Koated. You helped me get my handle bars solid in the grommets again, I have a wire schematic now and am making headway there, it is charging great, headlight Tail and Brake lights AND Speedo indicator lights all working, Left side flashers are working, Right are still dead.. but it is a long winter ahead. Petcocks are clean,
The fuel leak is gone (1st time in 24 years of ownership) Front brake is clean, flushed and working great, Clutch is adjusted with no "grabbies" in gear, plus no slipping.... throttle cables free and lubed, new Levers. To Do list, includes Front seals, rear sway bushings and rod being replaced with new and bearings instead of bushings. I am putting shortees on it i have them bought and they add a nice rumble to the bike! Once those are done new decals, a bit of ding work on the tank, I don't think I am going back to the Sparkle Black, but that bike should look great
either Aqua, Saphire Sparkle, or Ruby Red Candy, The Gold decals should really pop with any of those.
Thank you guys! NO WAY I would have gotten this all done without your help.....
Larry Duane Beach...Cousin Larry does nicely.....
Orion61
XS650 Addict
Oh yes, last thing, since it is not leaking oil from the gaskets I didn't re-torque the head bolts. I wasn't asking for the Bike Gods to throw me a stripped bolt or
other things that make me shiver!
other things that make me shiver!
Well, it really is considered routine maintenance on these motors, checking the head bolt torque every year or two. If you still have those original rubber/metal washers under the 4 outside acorn nuts, I can pretty much guarantee you they're loose.
Now that you're getting into the 650 again, you'll be noticing and looking over any you happen to see out and about. You will probably notice many have leaky head gaskets. Those rubber/metal washers and failure to check the head bolt torque occasionally are the major causes of that.
Now that you're getting into the 650 again, you'll be noticing and looking over any you happen to see out and about. You will probably notice many have leaky head gaskets. Those rubber/metal washers and failure to check the head bolt torque occasionally are the major causes of that.
OH Great and wonderful Wizard of XS!!! grant this pilgrim that has come so far the courage and wisdom to do the #%%#@$^$^ headstud retorque. grin.
The head gasket will someday start leaking, and you will never know if the re-torquing staved it off awhile, or if the re-torquing caused it, I think it's possible most head gaskets in this community start leaking because of all the re-torquing ruining the gasket.
Nice about the bolts on the adjuster being loose. A good reminder of how hard it can be to fix something long distance
Nice about the bolts on the adjuster being loose. A good reminder of how hard it can be to fix something long distance
Uh, you did it right but wrote it wrong, Mick--the outside studs go through oil bearing passages and take sealing washers, the inner studs take plain steel washers . Copper is a much better choice than brass.
Or grant him the courage and discipline to not fix what ain't broken, whichever is more efficacious.
Orion61
XS650 Addict
Now that you mention it, the cooling fins seem to be, I don't know how to say it dirty I guess? Is that from
leaking by the gaskets?
If so yes Mine need to be done, I looked closer today and yes the washers are Steel.
Come to think of it, when I was bring it to the compression stroke to kick it, I thought I might have heard a slight compression leaking???
So OK that will be my next thing to do, to loosen and re torque the head bolts to 30 lbs for the big acorn nuts, can I just keep the washers there
and reuse them?
Last question is how often should I do this?
leaking by the gaskets?
If so yes Mine need to be done, I looked closer today and yes the washers are Steel.
Come to think of it, when I was bring it to the compression stroke to kick it, I thought I might have heard a slight compression leaking???
So OK that will be my next thing to do, to loosen and re torque the head bolts to 30 lbs for the big acorn nuts, can I just keep the washers there
and reuse them?
Last question is how often should I do this?
Orion61
XS650 Addict
I forgot to mention no matter what I did, I couldn't seem to keep the carbs from leaking gas if the petcocks weren't shut off, they would leak a big puddle of gasoline. I cant really afford to spend money right now To explain I am disabled from 3 heart Attacks and Chronic Arthritis and Stenosis n my back, that plus a number of rpl knees and staff infection....I finally won my Disability claim after nearly 3 years and 4 Specialists on my side. For about 10 years everybody with a head cold or people that thought they felt depressed easily got on disability, a couple years ago that ALL changed, and now it is about impossible, and to top that they got my amount messed up!!!! AARGH, Got approved in June but some idiot entered a wrong key stroke and moved the decimal point and so I am missing a thousand dollars and getting $180.00 instead of $1800.00! AND it is going to take another 4-6 months to get an appeal????
SORRY for the long story, but I have to reuse what I can, So I used a rubber tube and valve grinding paste with my Dremmel on the Needle Valves and seats,
I used high rpm and light pressure with the Needle valve coated with the valve paste, chucked in, now I am getting no more overfilled leaky carbs! It is also why I asked about reusing the Washers I have and why I wrapped rubber tape around my handle bar studs that go into the dampening grommets..... So far so good, Bike repair on a shoestring budget!
I should just wait but I have waited so long, that little voice told me that I needed to fix it or scrap it!
SORRY for the long story, but I have to reuse what I can, So I used a rubber tube and valve grinding paste with my Dremmel on the Needle Valves and seats,
I used high rpm and light pressure with the Needle valve coated with the valve paste, chucked in, now I am getting no more overfilled leaky carbs! It is also why I asked about reusing the Washers I have and why I wrapped rubber tape around my handle bar studs that go into the dampening grommets..... So far so good, Bike repair on a shoestring budget!
I should just wait but I have waited so long, that little voice told me that I needed to fix it or scrap it!
If the carb leaks return do a hot water dip test on the floats, cracked leaky brass floats, more likely than not.
Good that the "lapping" worked. Only problem I see is that you have made a "seat area" with lapping rather than the fairly sharp edge the factory built. May be more prone to catching debris allowing leaks, check the little springs in the needle for strong free action, varnish builds up in there, weak or sticky springs a common issue. New fuel lines, No economy in old fuel lines. Clean rust free gas tank.
If you haven't guessed retorqing of head studs has been a consistent win/win for me.
Done this on at least 15 XS650's so far I have never caused a problem doing it and have had an 80% plus success rate stopping leaks. I often do the retorque during the first round of getting it ready to start. I'd say 90% of old bikes show evidence of head leaks, we are lucky to be able to redo ours with the engine in the bike.
While on this riff; I have stopped several "old car"head oil leaks with retorques, typically a high miles OHC 4 banger with oil leaks. Pull the valve cover, just like the XS release and retighten one stud nut at a time, reassemble. Leaks stopped! Yeah the studs or bolts are torque to yield blah blah blah. Whatcha got to lose on a 200K plus FWD leaving puddles in the driveway?
All maintanence desisions are strictly the perogative of the OP
Good that the "lapping" worked. Only problem I see is that you have made a "seat area" with lapping rather than the fairly sharp edge the factory built. May be more prone to catching debris allowing leaks, check the little springs in the needle for strong free action, varnish builds up in there, weak or sticky springs a common issue. New fuel lines, No economy in old fuel lines. Clean rust free gas tank.
If you haven't guessed retorqing of head studs has been a consistent win/win for me.
Done this on at least 15 XS650's so far I have never caused a problem doing it and have had an 80% plus success rate stopping leaks. I often do the retorque during the first round of getting it ready to start. I'd say 90% of old bikes show evidence of head leaks, we are lucky to be able to redo ours with the engine in the bike.
While on this riff; I have stopped several "old car"head oil leaks with retorques, typically a high miles OHC 4 banger with oil leaks. Pull the valve cover, just like the XS release and retighten one stud nut at a time, reassemble. Leaks stopped! Yeah the studs or bolts are torque to yield blah blah blah. Whatcha got to lose on a 200K plus FWD leaving puddles in the driveway?
All maintanence desisions are strictly the perogative of the OP
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Orion61
XS650 Addict
I could actually see a bit of light when I took the seat out and put the needle valve in, the springs are both good. After I lapped it no light. and no leak, I tested both brass Floats, not only did they not leak when they were boiled while being held down, but I held them down for 2 days in a glass of water, no fluid inside the floats, so I think we are good there.
What are the symptoms of the bolts being loose? It did have a very slight seep before, but that isn't leaking now.
What are the symptoms of the bolts being loose? It did have a very slight seep before, but that isn't leaking now.
Wus thinking about this
IMHO remove one of the easy to get at outer nuts. IF it takes a lot of pressure before it breaks loose and the nut releases with a "tink" Odds are it has never been done or was done so long ago it's time again. The head gasket you save will be your own.
XJWMX "The head gasket will someday start leaking, and you will never know if the re-torquing staved it off awhile, or if the re-torquing caused it, I think it's possible most head gaskets in this community start leaking because of all the re-torquing ruining the gasket.
So XJWMX: Has doing head stud retorque ever caused a bike you were working on to START leaking? Have you done one? Is your head gasket leaking? Any I retorqued and caused a leak threads you can point us at?
Yes eventually head gaskets leak. rings wear out, etc.
IMHO remove one of the easy to get at outer nuts. IF it takes a lot of pressure before it breaks loose and the nut releases with a "tink" Odds are it has never been done or was done so long ago it's time again. The head gasket you save will be your own.
XJWMX "The head gasket will someday start leaking, and you will never know if the re-torquing staved it off awhile, or if the re-torquing caused it, I think it's possible most head gaskets in this community start leaking because of all the re-torquing ruining the gasket.
So XJWMX: Has doing head stud retorque ever caused a bike you were working on to START leaking? Have you done one? Is your head gasket leaking? Any I retorqued and caused a leak threads you can point us at?
Yes eventually head gaskets leak. rings wear out, etc.
As Gary said, and the Service Bulletin states, be sure to crack the nuts and bolts loose first before trying to torque them. They can and do get stuck on the threads and that could give you a false torque reading. They could read tight when they're really not. Better yet, remove each one, one at a time, clean the threads, apply anti-seize, and re-install. On the big acorn nuts, I set each one to about 25# initially then go back around and bring them all up to 30. Once the bolts and nuts are cleaned and anti-seized, you won't need to crack them loose before re-torquing in the future. They won't get "stuck" again.
For the rubber/metal washers under the outside 4 acorn nuts, it's not imperative you replace them right away. They do seal well, just don't hold the torque well. You will just need to check them more often than if you switched to copper or brass. But, it's not too big a deal on those. You can access them anytime, bike still fully assembled and tank still on. If I was still running them, I would probably be checking them like twice a season.
For the rubber/metal washers under the outside 4 acorn nuts, it's not imperative you replace them right away. They do seal well, just don't hold the torque well. You will just need to check them more often than if you switched to copper or brass. But, it's not too big a deal on those. You can access them anytime, bike still fully assembled and tank still on. If I was still running them, I would probably be checking them like twice a season.
First of all, what he described isn't head gasket leaking.
Yes I have seen re-torquing cause a head gasket leak. In fact, mine. There was no leak, but oil consumption was high and on the off chance that it was leaking from the tunnel into a cylinder I re-torqued the head. Immediately and from then on there was a pretty severe leak visible on the left side. Also I have seen member's bikes that were leaking and I have no doubt they were re-torqued. Did it cause it? Neither of us knows.
Ok, I had to rebuild by engine 1000 mi. ago because of a problem with the crank. Putting it back together, I torqued the head nuts. Next day I torqued it again after putting in in the frame. I have no doubt whatsoever if I checked the torque now it would be a little low. It is NOT leaking. Not only that, I used no sealer on the gasket contrary to conventional wisdom of this site. The reason for that was a quote somewhere that went "Don't use sealer. I don't care if the guy who tells you to use it says he rode with Che Guevara in South America." How could you not try that advice
I'm relating my experience -- I have no reason to get on here and talk crap...
Orion61
XS650 Addict
When you re-Torqued your head bolts, did you, Do them one at a time and loosen THEN re-Torque, or did you loosen ALL of them then Re-Torque?First of all, what he described isn't head gasket leaking.
Yes I have seen re-torquing cause a head gasket leak. In fact, mine. There was no leak, but oil consumption was high and on the off chance that it was leaking from the tunnel into a cylinder I re-torqued the head. Immediately and from then on there was a pretty severe leak visible on the left side. Also I have seen member's bikes that were leaking and I have no doubt they were re-torqued. Did it cause it? Neither of us knows.
Ok, I had to rebuild by engine 1000 mi. ago because of a problem with the crank. Putting it back together, I torqued the head nuts. Next day I torqued it again after putting in in the frame. I have no doubt whatsoever if I checked the torque now it would be a little low. It is NOT leaking. Not only that, I used no sealer on the gasket contrary to conventional wisdom of this site. The reason for that was a quote somewhere that went "Don't use sealer. I don't care if the guy who tells you to use it says he rode with Che Guevara in South America." How could you not try that advice
I could see if you loosened them ALL, then re-torqued having the head gasket sealer pull off leave torrn patches stuck to the head while other areas were stuck to the cylinder leaving weak areas in the gasket which could blow.
It seems more logical to do one at a time to avoid pulling off.
Yes, do one at a time. On the large acorn nuts, bring them back to about 25 pounds after removal and cleaning. Then go around and bring all 8 up to 30. The 3 smaller bolts (2 under the plugs, one back between the carbs) can be removed (one at a time again) and re-installed w/ anti-seize up to their full torque value.
I think these motors are just prone to getting leaks in their head gaskets. Even if they are installed correctly and kept properly torqued. I think it just happens to the best of them after a certain amount of time. They have a good sized cylinder block mounted with long studs. I think the heat cycles (expansion and contraction) over many years and miles just does that head gasket in. Maybe Yamaha should have used more than 8 studs, lol.
I think these motors are just prone to getting leaks in their head gaskets. Even if they are installed correctly and kept properly torqued. I think it just happens to the best of them after a certain amount of time. They have a good sized cylinder block mounted with long studs. I think the heat cycles (expansion and contraction) over many years and miles just does that head gasket in. Maybe Yamaha should have used more than 8 studs, lol.
