Starter help??!!

Thanks guys for all the help. Between your advice, other posts and the manual, I'm getting there. So the things I've done are: connected the clutch wire, connected the side stand wire and did away with the relay off the side stand wiring (those wires I simply tied off and wrapped well for now). Seems to run fine but I wanted to make sure this was not an issue of any kind? Where I am now is: 1)The head light does not come on and 2) neutral light always stays on. I'll worry about the neutral light later but for now the headlight. I found a thread started on May 15, 2016 entitled "safety relay gone bad?" It seems to coincide with my issue so i did what it said and tested the relay by jumping it. Relay seems to be fine. Next I checked the battery output because in the thread it says that the alternator needs to be pushing enough voltage (about 4.5) to make the relay trip? So my (recently charged) battery output is 11.9-12v when off and once started does not go up but actually goes down a bit even at 3000 rpms. So, it sounds like I have an alternator issue?? Ive tested (with my limited knowledge of an engine and ohm meter) the resistance and it seems to be around 3? First actual question is: does it sound like I'm on the right track? Second question, Do I start a new thread (relating to alternator)? Ive seen that recommended when someone has two many things going on at one time. Thanks again for all the help. I feel like I'm getting there and learning quite a bit as I go!
 
I really wish you had kept on chasing that neutral light problem.......................I'm so curious what the PO's have done!

Yes, it is better to start a new thread. Well, no charging is a common problem, so do a search and you will find thousands of threads on the topic. Start by removing the brushes, check that they are at least 0.4 inches long, and measure the resistance of the rotor, slip ring to slip ring. If you don't find the answer, someone on the site will find out what is really wrong.
 
I will get right back on the neutral problem and let you know what I find RG. I just want to make sure I get the lights on and battery charging first. Thanks again for the info, this is fun stuff! For now I'll start searching the charging issue posts and see if I can have as much success. So over and out for now!
 
I just wanted to give an update on where I'm at. I solved the neutral light issue but quite frankly I'm not sure how? I hope this does not disappoint Retiredgentleman very much but the neutral light is now working as it should and I have no idea how. I cleaned up some wires like the sidestand relay and the reserve lighting system. I followed some other threads to do this and almost everything seems to be working as normal. The bike is running great now with the exception of the charging system. I'm still not getting enough power at start up to trip the starter cutoff relay. The battery seems to be getting enough to hold a charge but not enough to trip the relay? So the search goes on.
 
Quote: "I'm still not getting enough power at start up to trip the starter cutoff relay."
I think you mean the Safety Relay is not operating...........................so do you mean the headlight is not turning on?
In post #21, you said the fully charged battery measured 11.9 to 12 volts. That is not a fully charged battery. A fully charged battery should read about 12.5 volts. You also said you measured 3 ohms. Where did you measure the 3 ohms? If you mean the rotor slip rings measured 3 ohms, then the rotor is defective. Your meter leads would likely measure 0.5 to 0.7 ohms, so the rotor windings themselves would only be 2.3 to 2.5 ohms.
 
First let me say thanks RG for taking an interest in my situation. I really appreciate the help. To answer your first question: the headlight is not coming on and also the starter still works when the engine is running. These two things according to the manual are controlled by the "Starter cut-off/headlight relay (double box). The "Safety Relay" that you added to the diagram on page 159-is this the same as the "Starter cut-off/headlight relay" in diagram 7.32 on page 161? Or are they two separate things? The other relay ("Starter lockout") seems to work properly when the ignition is turned on. You can hear it click. Im sorry if this is redundant but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it because these two relays are the only ones I see. I found a thread where "XSLeo" tells how to test the "Starter cut-off/headlight" relay and it seems to work when its jumped. "XSLeo" calls it a "safety relay" but what he describes, is what the book calls the "Starter cut-off/headlight relay" (What I call "the double relay box). He says this relay needs an additional 4.5? volts in order to switch? Thus cutting on the headlight and cutting off the starter? The reason I said I have a "fully charged" battery is because it doesn't seem to be going down over time-only when I rev the engine. I will keep a closer eye on the battery voltage because maybe it is slowly draining? As far as the ohms readings I'm getting, I will recheck them, because I may have I meant .3 ohms not 3. This is my first experience with a multimeter so i guess I need some practice. I will search some threads to get a better understanding of testing the alternator and get back to you with my findings. I hope I am translating the info properly and not making it more confusing (to you or me). The biggest thing is I just need help with the whole "safety relay" question (is it the same as the "Starter lockout relay") just so Im not chasing the wrong rabbit. Thanks so much!
 
Your problem is that the alternator is not charging with enough voltage to operate the Safety Relay. It is also called the
Starter-cut-off/headlight relay, but they are the same relay (actually 2 relays or 2 boxes as you say). In your Haynes manual just put a circle around the Starter-cut-off/headlight relay, and label it Safety Relay.

Your battery is not being charged, so it will lose voltage over time.

The Starter Lockout Relay is a separate relay ,as clearly shown in diagram 7.25 on page 160.

So we're back to where we were in post #22. You have to remove the brushes,measure their length, and also measure the resistance from one slip ring to the other slip ring (needs to be 5 to 6 ohms). If those tests are found good, then you would move on to measuring the AC voltage coming from the 3 white stator leads, and the single yellow wire coming from the stator centre.
 
Ok cool. I think what threw me off a bit was when I asked earlier in the thread if the "starter lockout relay" was the same as the "safety relay" because the book has the "SLR" and the" SC-O/HR" backwards. Not only that but someone else said it was the same (I'm thinking they may have misread my post because they seem knowledgable as well). Now it is crystal clear! I've made all the appropriate notes in my book so we can put that to rest.
I will next start with trying to get a good read on my slip rings. Do I need to pull anything in order to get an accurate reading? I did not the first time but have read where it is necessary? Also I have already checked the brushes and they are nearly new in length. I know this because I actually bought a new set hoping that was the case but was not. Anyone need a nice new set of brushes? lol. What kind of AC voltage should I be looking for on the 3 white stator leads? And what am I checking them against on my meter? Red to... Black to...? I want to also mention the bike only has about 7000 miles on it and when I take the alt side cover off everything looks nearly new and clean. Are these issues coming about just because its 30+ years old?? Thanks again Retiredgentleman and everyone else thats trying to get this fellow XS lover through this.
 
The brushes can't be in contact with the rotor when you test it so either remove them or pull the whole alternator off. Personally, I find it easier to pull the alternator and support it off to the side. It's only two screws .....

SlipRingCleaning.jpg
 
Yes, I agree with 5twins. Its easiest to just remove the 2 long screws, and remove the stator part of the alternator. Be careful, as your phillips screwdriver is likely a poor fit to the head of those screws, which are JIS heads. You could easily damage the slots in the screws. You really need a manual impact tool, and the correct bit that usually comes with the tool. With the impact tool and a hammer (and the correct bit) its just a couple of firm taps with the hammer to loosen the screws. Watch out for the small locating dowel that protrudes from the bottom of the crankcase. It is there to aline the stator housing.

If the rotor has good resistance readings, be sure to clean/polish the slip rings to lower resistance of the contact surface.

I don't like using phillips (JIS) head screws, so have replaced the 2 long screws with 2 bolts. That way I can use my small torque wrench to tighten them (65 in/lbs).
 
Excellent. Thanks guys for the detailed info. I just happened to have bought an impact tool last week thinking it would come in handy. I will let you know how it goes. Im sure I'll have more questions once I get to that point. Thanks again.
 
So I pulled the stator, no problem with the impact tool. Checked the slip rings and I get between 5-6 ohms. Cleaned them up even though they look great before reassembly. Checked the whites in different combinations and get a consistent .8 ohms. The one test I found to do that suggests a problem is brown to green. I get 1.2 ohms and I read it should be 5.3? This suggests bad winding according to the thread i followed. Weekend rider suggested contacting Custom Rewind earlier in this thread. Would anyone else agree or do I need to do more testing before buying. To keep things simple I would like to stick with the stock type setup for charging (at least for now). The rewind would allow for this I am assuming?
 
If your rotor is testing between five and six ohms you don't need another.
My suggestion was from the lower numbers.
 
The brown to green test does not make sense to me...................you would have to post the link where you found that. Weekendrider's suggestion was meant only if the rotor windings were shorted out, but your rotor seems to be fine, so disregard that advice for now.

More testing is the way to proceed now. Start with a fully charged battery. Use a bench charger if you need to. You should start the engine and let it idle at 1200 rpm (use a fan if engine runs very long). Measure the battery DC voltage, then measure the DC voltage from one brush terminal to the other brush terminal. It should be about 10 to 11 volts DC.
Also while its running at 1200 rpm, measure the AC voltage from any white wire to any other white wire. The connector must be plugged in as normal so the stator is supplying the bike with power. You should be able to stick your meter lead probes into the back of the connector. Measure the 3 different combinations of white to white, as there are 3 different phases to read. They should all read about 12.5 to 13 volts AC.
 
Yes, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the green and brown wires from the alternator come from the brushes. I don't see what testing between them tells you other than maybe they're shorting out to one another.
 
Greetings guys. The testing of the green and brown wires is on page 159 (alternator testing) sect 24-5. Sorry I had stated this came from a thread but it actually came from the manual. Maybe its not really pertinent, or maybe I misunderstood it, but at this point I"ll try anything. So, when I check the battery before doing anything it reads 12.62v. Turn the key on and it drops to 11.3v. I checked the brushes and they both show the same (11.3v). Same when I actually start the bike and idle around 1200rpm. Next I did the test with the white wires. When connecting any combination of whites I get a reading of .2. I started the bike and at 1200rpm I get .2, at 2000rpm I get .3, at 3000rpm I get .4. I was talking to a guy today and he told me I should get a reading by using the positive probe to white while grounding out the other probe. Does this seem right? He is not an XS guy but seems pretty sharp with this stuff. I just don't want to do something inappropriate and fry something. If I do the test this way should I be getting the reading of 12.5-13 Acv that Retiredgentleman is talking about?
 
Disregard the green to brown test. You must have done that with the wires connected into the circuit of the rec/reg, which is not a valid way to test. You already tested the rotor windings at 5 to 6 ohms so they are good.

Measuring 11.3 volts at the battery and 11.3 volts at the brushes is not good. That means there is no current flow through the rotor windings. If there was current flow, there would be about a 2 volt drop, so it should have decreased to about 9.3 volts. That looks to me that your rec/reg combo unit is defective. The regulator part is not providing a path for the current to flow through the rotor windings.

What the other lad told you is not correct. You do not measure from a white wire to ground. You measure from one white wire to another white wire just as I told you in post #35.

On the white wires you say you measured 0.2, 0.3, 0.4..........................do you mean AC volts??

If you want to prove to yourself that the rotor has no current flow, you could do the "slap test". Suspend a wrench about an inch from the rotor face and turn on the ignition. If there is current flow the wrench will be pulled over and slap the rotor. That's not going to happen. To see the slap test work, unplug the rec/reg, suspend the wrench again, turn on the key and then touch the left outer brush with a temporary ground wire (or battery negative).
 
I know you guys are probably as frustrated about this as I am but I think we may be getting somewhere. I tried the slap test and of course you were right Retiredgentleman. It only slapped after I unplugged the rec/reg. I followed the manual today and bench tested the rectifier. It checks out fine but I'm guessing if theres an issue here it is with the regulator. So checking another thread I saw where someone said you could bypass the regulator by jumping green to ground. I did it and two things happened: 1- the headlight came on (thought that was a good sign) 2- the battery voltage continually dropped the longer I let it run (not a good sign). It dropped down to about 9v by the time I shut it off (1-2 minutes) What might this be telling me? I went to try another test I saw in that same thread where they suggested connecting the outer brush to the positive on battery and see if that raises the battery voltage. According to the thread this is supposed to prove your stator, rotor, brushes and rectifier are all good? However, at this point my battery is drained so I am charging overnight and will check in the morning unless you tell me this is either a bad idea or not necessary. And about the white wire readings, yes those were AC volts.
 
Now that you have done the slap test, its proves what I thought was happening.......................your regulator has failed and you will need to buy another one. Yes, the headlight turning on shows that the stator windings were producing voltage. During your short running of the engine (at 1200 rpm?) the alternator was not charging, but power was being consumed by the rotor and by the headlight and taillight. That means the battery was supplying the current, which drew it down to 9 volts. There is also the possibility that your battery is getting old/weak and may lose its charge quickly. Don't be concerned about the battery at this time, but its certainly a good idea to charge it up with a bench charger. If you really want to know if your battery is good or bad, you would have to take it somewhere that sells batteries and has a "load tester". They put a heavy load on it and measure how far the voltage drops, and it becomes a pass or fail test.

Quote: "they suggested connecting the outer brush to the positive on battery and see if that raises the battery voltage":
That test is only for the 1970 to 1979 models. On your 1983 model, that would do nothing.

Next step, you could do a search on this site for "1980 to 1983 voltage regulator replacement"
 

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