Starter help??!!

Thanks for the guidance Retiredgentleman. I have been shying away from it being the rec/reg unit from the beginning of this process because when I bought the bike, the PO told me it was having a charging issue. He kept it on a battery tender. He told me in his searching he thought it was the rec/reg unit but was not sure. He had purchased a "new" one that he said he had just not had the time to put on. As soon as I had a chance I installed the new one. However the problem still exists. When I first got the "new" one out of the box it looked a little suspect. It looks like a new one except for the fact that it had bolt markings on it where it looked like it had been mounted? I also thought it was a little suspicious that he had not made the swap because its a pretty easy thing to do. Then the other day I ran it through the rectifier test in the Haynes manual and it checked out fine. However this is a test for the rectifier. I can't find a specific test for the regulator or have I already unknowningly done this? So my question(s) is there a good chance that "new" rec/reg could have been returned defective? or could something be going on with my bike to make it defective? (this would be good to know before installing a new one-only to ruin it) Lastly, I've seen where some people use an automotive regulator as a replacement? Do you do that while using the original rec unit or do you have to replace both (the reg AND the rec)?
 
You can continue to use the rectifier portion of your combined reg/rec if it is still OK. Just remove the wires for the regulator from the connector. You will need to do that anyway so they can run to the new separate regulator. Or you can replace the rectifier with a separate unit as well. They're cheap on eBay, less than $10.

The automotive regulator swap that Pamcopete came up with for your charging system is the VR295. If you search eBay, you will find quite a few listed. However, there are quite a few others that cross-reference to it, in particular the VR125. Search for that one and you will find many more listed and at a cheaper price. Here's how to wire it up .....



Note that you will need to ground the case. Your battery box hangs off rubber mounts so that means running a separate ground wire from the regulator case to the bike frame.
 
Success! Well at least I think so. Need to do some more voltage strength testing over the next few days but for now she looks good. I picked up a new rec/reg today and was quickly in business. She started right up and the safety relay switched making the headlight come on and disabled the starter button. I had charged the battery last night so before starting I think it was reading a little over 13v. Once I started the bike it dropped down to 12.5 but climbed a little when I revved the engine (up to about 12.8 or so). Should it be reading higher? I took it for a nice ride (about 45 minutes) and when I came back shut it off and it read 12.73 . I will take Retiredgentlemans advice and go have the battery checked out to make sure its in good shape. Thanks for your patience and guidance. If the PO had not told me he had purchased the "new" reg/rec I probably would have changed it sooner. But as frustrating as the past couple weeks have been, if it had been that simple I wouldn't have learned as much about the charging system as I did. So again, Thanks.
 
That looks encouraging, but for a true test of the charging system you must read the battery voltage, as you rev the engine to about 3000 to 3500 rpm. Your meter should read around 14.1 to 14. 4 volts.
 
Well, it pains me to say but I may be back to square one. Ugh. Two days ago I purchased a new reg/rec, hooked it up, started bike and everything worked as it is supposed to. Rode it for about 45 min and everything seemed fine. The only thing suspect was the battery was not getting enough boost. So yesterday, I took Retiredgentlemans advice and took it to the auto parts store to have them check the battery. Rode it down there and the dude told me he couldn't check it with it hooked up. Ok, so I went to start the bike up to head back home and it sounded kinda funny. Stepped off the bike and the headlight wasn't on. Ok, rode it home and once I got back I checked the voltage and it didn't seem to bad (about 12.5). However, I charged the battery overnight so that it would be fully charged when I took it back. Today I took it back, they hooked it up, said it read 13.25 and passed as good. Brought it back home and hooked it back up, started engine just to see if safety relay would switch under a full charge. That didn't happen so I guess its back to square one. My main question is, now that I have installed what the PO called a new reg/rec and then another one that I had purchased which did work for one day, am I shorting them out somehow?? Could there be a short or something that is destroying them or are they (hopefully) not being destroyed but something else going on?? I'm at the point of wondering if I need to get a new wiring harness and start from scratch or am I barking up the wrong tree? Or do I simply go back to testing? Testing what? I may just be venting here a bit. I guess tomorrow I'll start the testing process over again with the same tests (mostly what retiredgentlemans has advised).
 
In post #44, I said there is a true way to test a charging system. Have you done that test? If not, do the test and tell us what voltage you get.

Where did you buy the combo rec/reg? I believe it was Royboy that had recently bought 2 combo rec/reg units from Mikesxs and both were defective.
 
Reluctantly I purchased a new rec/reg so I could continue to test the bike. I've re-tested several things this week but most importantly the battery. I think my latest findings should be the most accurate and if they contradict any earlier it is simply because of my rookie status. Before starting the bike the battery reads 12.8, turn ignition key goes to 12.3. Start bike it drops to 11.8ish at idle. Rev engine to 3000rpm and it waivers some but never goes back up over 12.2 or so. The biggest issue I found was when I used the meter (set on ACv) on the stator connector (bike idling) I did not get any reading at all. The guide I was following suggests grounded stator? Then I checked the resistance on the stator (white wires) and they check out fine (.5-.6 ohms). With both the new and the old rec/reg I jumped the green wire to ground and neither time did the voltage raise on the battery. I think this helps to eliminate the rec/reg as the problem? With the stator AC v reading nothing does this narrow it down to a bad stator or grounded stator? Thanks for the help once again!
 
BBQRider said:
Retiredgentlman: none of the leads shows any resistance. ??
Click to expand...

If your meter shows open circuit (very high resistance) then that is good...................stator windings are not grounded.

One of your quotes: ......" With both the new and the old rec/reg I jumped the green wire to ground and neither time did the voltage raise on the battery." Lets be clear here....................you can't do that test with the engine at 1200 rpm. Do that test when you rev the engine up to 3000 or more rpm. At that rpm you should see 14 volts or more. You likely need a second person helping for this test.
 
Getting hard to follow this thread anymore. Sometimes you have been able to get enough voltage to operate the Safety Relay, and other times you report almost no AC voltage from the stator. Have you done a careful check of the 3 stator wires as they run from the alternator to the rectifier? Look for bare or broken wires. Perhaps you should redo the resistance measurement of the stator wires. Unplug the connector and measure from white to white, the 3 different combinations. Touch your meter leads together, they may measure 0.5 to 0.7 ohms for just the leads themselves. Then measure white to white.
 
Thanks for helping and guiding me through this process Retiredgentleman. I'm sure its been frustrating for you because I'm at my wits end. I've tried to do the readings you suggested and report them as accurately as possible. Some readings may have changed due to "cleaning up" some old wiring and the new reg/rec install. I've got a buddy (pretty knowledgable) I am going to have come over this week and see if two sets of eyes can't solve this thing. I will let you know what we find. Hopefully its just a simple grounding issue or lack there of somewhere. Thanks again.
 
Received a 'conversation' from BBQRider, requesting help. Best to put the response here, keep everybody on the same page. I don't normally respond to electrical questions on these new-fangled late-model safety-interlock demons, not my department. But, this pertains to the charging system, so I'll throw out a few ideas.

Highly recommend adding a simple voltmeter, at least temporary. Otherwise, you're driving blind.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/nifty-little-voltage-monitoring-doo-dad.27642/
http://www.xs650.com/threads/inexpensive-voltmeter-monitor-voltage-while-riding.27151/

Stators on these kinds of alternators rarely go bad, and usually are at the bottom of the 'suspect' list.

Majority of the problems are with failed rotors and rec/reg units.

Your 80-83 charging system has power delivered to the inner brush, via a brown wire (switched hot).
The outer brush is ground-regulated via the green wire, from the regulator. Must use the later model regulator that grounds the green wire, not the 70-79 regulator that powers the green wire.

Ensure that you've got a reliable power delivery to that brown wire inner brush. Ensure that the brush's braided wire wraps around its hold-down to the left, away from the metal shield on its right.

On the 80-83 alternators, grounding the outer brush green wire bypasses the regulator, and should give you full rotor magnetism and full charging output. If that happens, then suspect the regulator. If not, then suspect brown wire power delivery, or the brushes, or the rotor.

Since you've already checked and confirmed the rotor and brushes, all that's left to suspect is brown wire power, the regulator, and it's wiring/grounding.

RoyBoy's reports of new replacement multiple failed regulators is concerning. I wouldn't be surprised if many of those are unreported, returned, then sent back out to the customer pool, only to be returned, and the cycle repeats.

Last item. If the battery consumes excessive current to maintain its charge, it'll overtax the charging system, leading to failure. Bench tests I used to do long ago on 12-14 amp-hour batteries included ensuring that the battery drew no more than 2 amps of charging current after it reached full charge (ideally .1 - .5 amps). More than that indicated aging and sulphation, recommended replacement...
 
I was planning to pick up a voltmeter or at least get one ordered today. I agree, I think it's is a must have. The reason I wrote "Twomany" is because he suggests hooking up a quick blow fuse to the regulator in a thread I was reading. Since I am now on the third replacement (rec/reg) I thought it would be a good idea as I continue to test and solve this charging issue. So if anyone can tell me exactly what wire and where to do this I would really appreciate the expert guidance. Thanks "Twomany" for your insight and thanks "Retired" for your patience.
 
Hey 2M, it was a thread titled "blew another regulator" started Oct 7, 2014. You responded on October 8. I'm not sure how to share or copy a thread. I'll have to learn that one.
 
Okay, found it.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/blew-another-regulator.38221/

TwoManyXS1Bs said:
Might think about an intermittantly shorting rotor. Any color signs of overheat?
Could put a 3-amp quickblow fuse in that supply line. If it blows, you've saved a regulator, and probably confirmed the intermittancy...
Click to expand...

In that particular thread, the charging system is the earlier 70-79 type, which has the regulator powering the rotor. If the rotor fails, or shorts, it could cause high current in the regulator, damaging it. Hence the suggestion to fuse it.

Your system is the later, reversed, scenario. The regulator grounds the rotor. If you want to protect that type of regulator, then a 5 amp fuse could be placed:

Somewhere in the grounding green wire, between the brush and regulator.
Or, somewhere in the powering brown wire, but only on that leg that feeds the inner brush.

There's another remote possibility, inability to handle the back-EMF of the rotor current when the ignition is switched off. The later combined rec/reg should already have provision to handle that, but who knows. Your reports show that the charging failures seem to coincide with post-shutdown, which could be an indicator of failure to shunt that destructive back-EMF.

Although this thread addresses the earlier system, the principle remains. I hope it's understandable.

http://www.xs650.com/threads/alternator-rotor-inductive-kickback.42605/
 
Thats kinda where I thought would be a good (green wire). Thanks for the insight 2M. This afternoon I am going to go through all connections and clean and grease them. Also install a voltmeter and the in line fuse. Will that inline fuse help with the "back-EMF, if thats an issue? Or would I need some other form of protection for that specifically? Thanks for the help!
 
BBQRider said:
...Will that inline fuse help with the "back-EMF, if thats an issue? Or would I need some other form of protection for that specifically?
Click to expand...

If the "back-EMF" is an issue, the fuse may indeed blow, but the spike would probably knock-out the regulator before it could be isolated.

I updated that "inductive kickback" thread, answering 5twins with instructions on diode placement for the later alternators, and the starter relay...
 

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