starter not disengaging, did before

[marp68]

After stretching the return spring because of starter not disengaging quickly enough (1-2 sec extra), I put everyting back together.

The bike fired upp great, but now it doesn't disengage at all. It grinds on. Pushing the button when started doesn't change the grinding sound. So either the starter keep it spinning and engaged or the return spring doesn't push the gear out. Only once when starting, it disengaged completely. Repeatingly starting the engine again, it don't. Went around the block, still grinds.

I let it be for half an hour, fired it up, and then it disengaged completely. But then, shutting off and when starting the engine immediately again, it didn't disenegaged completely again. Now, again waiting an hour, it still doesn't disengage at all.

Maybe I should try stretching a little more?

Could the spring perhaps get stuck somehow? So that it' not fully expands? Or can it be stretched to much? It worked before though. The only issue then was that it didn't disengaged quickly enough, took 1-2 sec to disengage completely.

Even if I shut it off when not fully disengaging after using the starter, and then kickstarts it, it still rattling on, as if the starter continue to spin or if not, the gear is engaged.

Have read a thread about the starter solenoid. Can this be it? Didn't have the trouble before, then the starter just didn't disengage quickly enough, so that's why I tried to stretch the spring some. But now this worse thing happens...

Getting colder here. Perhaps some snow next week, so I really would like to slve this before next riding season.
M

 

[I am Carbon]

I would not worrie about the solenoid. I would take the starter back out and bench test it. Then you can see what is goin on.

 

[marp68]

Do you mean removing the starter itself? Havn't had it out before, only the starter bendix gear, clip and spring. Because it didn't engage, just rattling sound. PO had mounted the wishbone wrongly, so I just put it back correctly, and it then fired up as it should, but didn't disengage quickly enough. So I took it apart again and strecthed the return spring and reassembled everything. Now it doesn't disengage completely at all. This happens almost every time.

I don't know if the starter stops spinning, or if does and it's just the sound of the gear not disengaged. Pressing the button when engine running doesn't change anything. Same grinding sound.

Is there any way of verifying wether it's the starter that doesn't stop spinning (still current on it) OR if it's the return spring that doesn't push out the starter gear OR if the gear is stuck? The starter stopped and disnengaged before, just not quickly enough though.
Why removing the starter itself? Am I missing something here?

The wishbone clip seems okej, since the starter gear engages okej now. Is it possible that I bent the return spring wrongly? Just stretched it out some.

I also read in thread that some have removed the return spring. Can it really disengage without the return spring?

 

[marp68]

I found this thread....

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?p=136726#post136726

 

[DogBunny]

You are now on the right track. You have found one of the millions of threads that deal with this problem. This happens to every XS650.

You can either buy the starter gear repair kit from MikesXS and do this repair:
http://www.650motorcycles.com/XSbendix.html

Or, you can do this repair, squeezing the existing wishbone clip:
http://www.650central.com/felectric_starter_fix_without_gea.htm

 

[marp68]

You are now on the right track. You have found one of the millions of threads that deal with this problem. This happens to every XS650.

You can either buy the starter gear repair kit from MikesXS and do this repair:
http://www.650motorcycles.com/XSbendix.html

Or, you can do this repair, squeezing the existing wishbone clip:
http://www.650central.com/felectric_starter_fix_without_gea.htm

Thanks for feedback...
The gear, clip and spring seem rather new, as if the PO did changed it but mounted it incorrectly. The clip hanged loose beside the gear... Mounting it made the engagement work perfect but it didn't disengaged quickly enough, so I just stretched the return spring a bit. With the reuslts that it now don't disengage at all. Which is strange, since I stretched it more.

SO before ripping everything apart again, my question is:

What more beside a weak return spring can cause the gear to not disengage? Or what can have happened, since it did disengage before but not just quickly enough? Electric current still on starter causing the continuing engagement even when engine starts? Or gear just stucked due to faulty return spring, wishbone clip or even shaft?

Even when I kickstarted it after shutting the engine off while grinding, and the engine started, the grinding noise was still there, indicating that the gear was still engaged.

M

 

[marp68]

Breaking news...

I used the kick starter without the ignition on, and one can still hear a sort of grinding sound, as if something is grinding against teeths.

So no current on the starter, which indicates that the gear easily gets stuck, grinding the bigger gear, instead of disengaging completely. This may indicate that something went wrong when I stretched the return spring.

Will take it apart again tomorrow...

 

[weekendrider]

I wonder if tightening the clip spring it could be overtightened not allowing the weaker coil spring to do its job?
Could the coil spring have been put in upside down? Small end to the outside cause this?

One thing is for sure the longer it happens, the more metal is being beaten/shaved off.
Marp68 you didn't happen to measure across the teeth of the #4 gear did you?
Doesn't have a thing to do with your problem, just wondering.........

 

[angus67]

try unstreching it. put it back the way it was, then follow the ubove repair threads.
If your bike is mostly stock, meaning the safety relays, and all that stuff is still on there, your starter wont do anything once the motor is running. the yellow wire coming from your stator tells the gnomes in the electrics to not put power to the starter.

 

[marp68]

I wonder if tightening the clip spring it could be overtightened not allowing the weaker coil spring to do its job?
Could the coil spring have been put in upside down? Small end to the outside cause this?

One thing is for sure the longer it happens, the more metal is being beaten/shaved off.
Marp68 you didn't happen to measure across the teeth of the #4 gear did you?
Doesn't have a thing to do with your problem, just wondering.........

If you with "clip spring" mean the wishbone shaped clip, I just put it on since it was mounted incorrectly. Not tightning it at all. After reassembling everything, it engaged and disengaged properly. Only that it didn't disengage quickly, took 1-2 sec. So I stretchted out the and reassembled again. Then this issue started, not disengaging at all.

The only difference is the return (coil) spring being stretched out.

Regarding the coil spring mounting... I mounted the wider diameter end towards the inside wall of the engine and the smaller diameter end towards the bendix gear side. Otherwis the wider end would have gone over the gear, since it's wider than the gear. Or more or less the same.

Didnät measure over the #4 gear teeth. Why measure it? Between the teeth top, you mean? The teeths looks very good though.

M

 

[marp68]

try unstreching it. put it back the way it was, then follow the ubove repair threads.
If your bike is mostly stock, meaning the safety relays, and all that stuff is still on there, your starter wont do anything once the motor is running. the yellow wire coming from your stator tells the gnomes in the electrics to not put power to the starter.

Will do tomorrow.

Do you really thin it could have to do with the relays, since the grinding now sounds even when using the kick with the ignition off? Both slow teeth grinding when kicking and faster after the engine has started.

 

[marp68]

BTW, angus67, which spring do you suggest unstretching, the wishbone clip spring or the return coil spring?

Anything that could be ruled out, you think?

 

[weekendrider]

@angus67, I believe his problem is the gears are in a bind and not releasing.
Not that there is power to the starter.

@marp68
I thought the big end went over the gear helping keep the spring centered, would have bet on it. But now you've got me wondering. So..........anyone? Big end in or out?

Also there are some of these springs on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-YAMAHA-...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c4b1f01b9
Looks like they may have a bit of rust?

 

[xjwmx]

The usual problem is the starter won't engage. His problem is it won;t disengage. I remember a sleeve in there that has to be turned just right to go in properly, and a couple of other odd things like that. Maybe an unusual clip, can't remember. Take it apart and put it back together making sure it's right and it will probably work then.

 

[marp68]

Early morning here in Sweden.... Sipping morning coffea... Will take it apart again in an hour or so...

Yes, my problem is now it will not disengage...

@xjvmx
I think you're on to something...

@weekendrider
the small end of the coil spring seems to fit perfect around a small flat edge on the gear there is a small wall seperating it from the wishbone slot in the gear. I even made the small end a bit smaller to perfectly fit and sit tighter around the flet edge of the gear. Instead of hanging loose on the shaft.
Since the big end has a wider diameter than the gear, faced towards the gear, how would it be possible for it to push the gear out?
So, a overtightened wishbone clip could also cause the gear to get stuck?

BTW, I read that pamcote removed the coil spring completely. Will the gear be pushed out anyway? How? Is it forced out when the engine has fired and the current shuts off to the starter, wich makes it stop turning? Is the coil spring only a sort of "helper"? I have also seen some images where the coil spring is not cone shaped.

Since the coil spring only comes in a kit, I tried ordering it through a local dealer. They ordered it, but then got the message it wasn't able to order anymore.

I just assumed the big end should be in, since it was positioned that way when I took it apart. But since the PO had mounted the wishbone clip wrongly (was hanging loose beside the bendix gear on the inside), he may even have put the coil spring wrong. All parts look quite new and shiny, so I do believe they have been replaced. Or can the wishbone clip come loose by itself? Seems impossible....The wishbone clip was even positioned according to the new way, to the right.

 

[marp68]

Okej, everything out....

The gear had somehow got stuk inside the spring, which caused the gear to be engaged. I elaborated with the spring, making it fit the flat edge on the gear again. It is also easy that the big end finds it way behind the end-wall of the sleeve on which the gear goes on. So make the big end big enough to go around the end-wall of the sleeve.

ANyway, I put all things back... Puuh...

Now it disengage as it should, sometimes it takes 1-2 sec though, which I can live with.

But, now another issue. Before it engaged immediately. Now it sometimes grinds before engaging (or not engaging at all), sometimes it engages immediately. So, since it did engaged immediately before, I thought that instead of being caused by a weak wishbone clip, it could be because I've used a lot of power testing the starter on and off. Maybe the starter now didn't get enough power to attract the bendix gear hard and quickly enough, instead causing it to grind somtimes.

So I went around the block, 1-2 km, but the same things happens, it grinds when pushing the button, the next time i hit the button, it fires up. Will have to measure the battery. I can only measure the voltage though, don't know about the current which is the important thing. How do one measure the current put on the starter? And how much should it be? I also intend to go for a longer ride in the afternoon though.

If it's not one thing, than it's another.... Puuhhhhh

Should I take it apart again and tighten the wishbone clip or wait and buy a complete new starter gear kit? Need a break now... Don't like it, since the gear looks more than okej. Donät like buying used springs neither... Will see what I do...


Thanks for good input. I always like to inform myself, gather ideas, thinking about them, before doing things.

 

[marp68]

@weekendrider
I think definitely that the small end of the coil spring should be towards the gear (out) and the big end towards the engine wall (in). Otherwis the bigger diameter part will easily find its way over the gear teeths, causing it to get jammed engaged. Since I've now experienced that even the smaller end part can do this...

Or what do you other people say...?

 

[weekendrider]

If you have seen springs that are the same size on both ends maybe it doesn't matter?
I can't remember now which way I put it together.

The link I gave is (according to seller) N(ew) O(ld) S(tock).
Meaning it is a new part, but has been on the shelves awhile.
IMO it is the only way you are going to find a new spring by itself.
They come up occaisionally if you search XS650 NOS.
The reason I asked if you had measured across the teeth. I've found the spring(clip) tightening and stretching(coil) doesn't work if the gear has worn to 6mm across the top.

 

[5twins]

The gear gets flung in and out by centrifugal force. The spring is there to keep slight pressure on it and stop it from rattling on the shaft I think. I've had my spring removed for several seasons now but I'm pretty sure I can hear the gear rattling in there at idle when parked on the side stand. I'm going to put the spring back in next time I have the cover off. My starter works fine without it except for that rattling at idle.

XSJohn reported that the wishbone clip in that repair kit is not as good (strong) as an original so you're probably better off just bending the one you have tighter. I did that to my original like 5 years ago and it still works fine. Remove the clip, stick the small end in a vice, and pinch it tighter.

 

[marp68]

I'm charging the battery over night, so tomorrow I'll see if more power makes it engage better. If not I'll try to tighten the wishbone clip spring.

Or do you think that stretching out the coil spring to much could have caused the gear not to get flung in hard/fast enough and therefore not engage properly?

weekendrider,
I forgot to measure the teeths. Interesting idea. Do you mean 6 mm from teeth to teeth, that is, top to top? Will try to remember if I take it apart.

The story goes on...