That was close!

[sseres]

Apparently I was following too close to a car today on my way home from work on a road I've ridden a thousand times. Car in front of me stopped short when I was going about 25 mph. Good news is that nothing bad happened.

I could hear that one of my wheels was skidding. Only thing I can think is that it was the rear wheel because I didn't really lose control. But, engine didn't stall which made me think it was the front wheel. Questions:

Does the front wheel possibly lock up and if it does would you still be able to go straight?
If the rear wheel locks up,shouldn't the engine stall?
If the rear wheel locks up, is my rear brake adjusted correctly? It's the first time I've ever had to slam on brakes like this before. Tread on tires is excellent..

Whew. That scared the driving-too-close-to-the-guy-in-front-of-me out of me!

 

[Mister Mellow]

At that speed, it could have been either brake, but since most of the weight transfers to the front when stopping (increasing tire-to-road friction, and reducing the weight on the rear), it's more likely that it was a rear skid. Font wheel skids are bad news, as it's hard to keep a front wheel from tucking under in a prolonged skid, but if you're dead straight and don't skid until you're nearly stopped, it's possible to skid to an upright stop. A rear skid is more controllable, as long as you look in the direction you want to go, and don't let up suddenly on the rear brake (if you do, you can go into a wicked wobble).

A rear lock-up will stall the engine if you don't pull the clutch lever in, but you likely did that instinctively and didn't realize it.

One way to determine if your rear brakes are locking up is to do progressive braking drills. Your goal should be to work up from slow- to high-speed braking, and to focus on front brake use, then combined braking. Also try rear breaking only, and you'll see if they're locking unexpectedly. You'll also get a sense for their (weak) contribution to stopping power. I know you know all of this, but reading that you weren't sure which tire was skidding suggests you should work more with the bike in a controlled environment. I hate to skid. Hate it, hate it. But I will intentionally lock up my rears in parking lots once in a while, at slow speeds, just to get used to how it feels. I don't have much dirt experience, so I don't have as good a sense for how to keep my bike under control if it drifts or does something weird.

 

[gggGary]

Mr Mellow gives good advice. It is a part of my getting to know a bike to learn how it acts under heavy braking BEFORE I need to know. Even if your ride is well known to you occasional heavy braking drills as a skill level refresher should be part of your normal routine.
And yes a skid on either end for short distances is no big deal. Having owned an ABS equipped bike I know my best braking is not as good as a computer can do but I still work on my skills. I recently bought a crotch rocket and have been doing brake drills, that bike can easily lock the front with 2 fingers on the lever. Nearly all braking in a "panic stop" comes from the front in such a bike. Had a deer try to beat me across the road while on that bike tonight. Back locked for a little bit but I got back out of that brake and like mr mellow says got the clutch in too. I was stopped in time to watch the deer cross the road 10' in front of me. While practicing hard stops I have locked that front a few times already. Just release slightly and get back into the brake smoothly and quickly. If you don't practice you will not perform well when it's needed. I have recently changed front master cylinders on the 650 and can now exploit all the traction the front tire can give me under hard braking. The stock front master requires so much lever pressure to get a hard stop that nuanced braking at the edge of the traction envelope is hard to achieve. I guess living in thick deer country, I am a bit of a brake fanatic. But if it's not deer it's cell phones and texters. On the freeway in the van the other day a car was "parked" in the fast lane, I finally passed on the right, when I got along side the driver was firmly head down texting. I blew the horn and even crowded her, no reaction, she was just too busy to notice. Good thing I didn't have a pistol.

 

[pamcopete]

I practice short stops by stopping for a yellow light even though I could make it through. I focus on a stop line to give me some perspective so I do not just jam on the bakes. In most cases, you have more room / time than you think, so no need to panic and lock up the wheels. I also adjust my rear brake lever for more slack than normal so I really have to bend the foot and press hard to lock up the rear.

Following too closely can have other unexpected consequences as well. Some years ago I was following the car in front of me too closely when all of a sudden a large brick appeared from under the car. It was a two lane road with oncoming traffic, so I had no choice but to hold on and hit the brick going about 45. I didn't know my '78/E could do a wheelie, but it did when the front wheel hit the brick, followed immediately by the rear which pushed the front back down. People probably thought I knew what I was doing.

 

[Royboy]

All good points about the need to know what's going to happen under heavy braking. One thing I've learned is that braking tells you a lot about your tires. A tire that is more than a couple years old gets hard and dry and will skid much sooner than a new one, regardless of tread depth.

roy

 

[sseres]

You guys rule! I guess I have some hard braking practice in my immediate future.

As for tires, is there a way to tell a tire has gotten TOO hard to be good anymore?

 

[retiredgentleman]

Tail gating will eventually get you into an accident. I always leave a "safety zone" between me and the vehicle in front of me.................both when I drive the car and the bike. Its unbelievable, how much tail gating I see in the city of Calgary, but I expect that will never change. The auto collision repair shops do a brisk business here in this city.

Make sure you have good brakes on your bike (and your car as well), and practicing panic stops is a real good thing to do.

 

[ReycleBill]

You guys rule! I guess I have some hard braking practice in my immediate future.

As for tires, is there a way to tell a tire has gotten TOO hard to be good anymore?

Generally, if a tire is over 5 years old it should be replaced no matter how good it looks. Racers have hardness gauges and fancy stuff but most of us-- myself included-- wouldn't know how to use them if we had them.

 

[gggGary]

Had the Moto Guzzi in Madison yesterday 8/2019, a Michelin Lazertech 100/90/18 front, good tread, 2013 build date. Bike was recently wakened from dead.
35MPH boulevard, light turned yellow right at the go/no,go point. Going on through would have been "fine", by the time I decided to stop it was a full on braking event. I ride a lot of different bikes, and admit I had not done a braking test series on this bike. 750, single front disc, brembo 4 piston caliper, ss line appropriate MC. Down to about 12MPH into the intersection, the front slid, backed off the lever a touch got back on hard enough to slide a bit again before the full stop. Had to back up 7-8 feet to clear the intersection. Just another day. We've had recent rain, clean dry concrete. Guess the tire is a bit past it's best used by date. may have been something on the pavement. The slide was no big deal, easily controlled, dealt with. Just kind of a heads up post, look through this thread, add your experiences, comments.

 

[Raymond]

I like to practice hard braking. Often as we approach 30 limits - check mirror and if nobody behind - pull front brake on, smoothly increasing the power. Get speed down from 60-ish to 30 in a short distance. As the weight transfers, it's quite surprising how hard you can brake without locking. I don't bother with back brake for stopping or slowing the bike - if you are braking hard, there's not much weight on the back wheel so it would lock anyway.

The aim is to learn never to grab the brake. That will lock the wheel for sure.

Practice till it becomes 2nd nature.

 

[MaxPete]

I like to practice hard braking. Often as we approach 30 limits - check mirror and if nobody behind - pull front brake on, smoothly increasing the power. Get speed down from 60-ish to 30 in a short distance. As the weight transfers, it's quite surprising how hard you can brake without locking. I don't bother with back brake for stopping or slowing the bike - if you are braking hard, there's not much weight on the back wheel so it would lock anyway.

The aim is to learn never to grab the brake. That will lock the wheel for sure.

Practice till it becomes 2nd nature.

Yup - agreed. I have always been taught that using a motorcycle brake is just like using a firearm (although, I'm Canadian so what do I know about that? ) - it is better to "squeeze" than "grab" or "pull".

Come to think of it....there are other things to which those guidelines would also apply....

 

[59Tebo]

Yup. Those moments of terror will really wake you up. If you're lucky, all you'll have to do is change your shorts when you get home.
All those "alphabet soup" DOT numbers on the sidewall will tell you the week, and year your tires were manufactured. You have to check, because the clock starts as soon as they leave the mold. NOS does not count! You want tires as fresh as you can get them...

 

[Mailman]

a Michelin Lazertech 100/90/18 front, good tread, 2013 build date.

I had bought a brand new 2007 Triumph that came with a Lazertech front tire. That bike had a front end shimmy from day one. A couple of times I thought it might go into a tank slapper. I took it back to the dealer twice, they checked the steering head bearings and wheel balance and finally pronounced they were stumped and they’d done all they could. So back home at my shop, I got the front wheel off the ground and placed a fixed pointer next to the wheel and turned it, it was dead straight. Then I moved the pointer next to the sidewall and whadya know? It had a deflection of about 1/8” . I called the dealer and they said they were done chasing that problem, they said to call Michelin. I did.....yeah, that was humorous. I got some corporate guy on the phone and he just dismissed me....Not possible he said.
Finally I said f*** it and put a set of Dunlop ME880s on there , paid for it myself. And the first time I took it out, I could take my hands off the bars at 50mph and it was rock steady all the way down to as slow as I could go. The shimmy was completely gone.
I finally got my money back, but not until I took it all the way up to Triumph corporate America HQ. I squawked until I reached someone with enough pull. I think he basically paid me to stop bothering him.

 

[Ratranger]

And don't forget if you also have a newer bike with ABS it'll behave completely different. I've done a couple stops purposely causing the ABS to kick in since I got my triumph a few weeks ago, just so I know what to expect. Bigger bike with a bunch more suspension travel, stops way different than my XS, which stops way different than a stock XS. So practice on any bike you ride, because they are all going to react slightly different.

 

[gggGary]

And don't forget if you also have a newer bike with ABS it'll behave completely different. I've done a couple stops purposely causing the ABS to kick in since I got my triumph a few weeks ago, just so I know what to expect. Bigger bike with a bunch more suspension travel, stops way different than my XS, which stops way different than a stock XS. So practice on any bike you ride, because they are all going to react slightly different.

Absolutely ABS is useless if you are afraid to use it FULLY. You need to KNOW you can grab a handful of brakes and it will do your thinking. I've had a couple ABS bikes and tested the brakes, it's surprising just how good they are.
It gets trickier if you have both ABS and non ABS bikes.

 

[Gator xs2]

If you can’t stop don’t be afraid to motocross. If available.

 

[gggGary]

I had bought a brand new 2007 Triumph that came with a Lazertech front tire. That bike had a front end shimmy from day one. A couple of times I thought it might go into a tank slapper. I took it back to the dealer twice, they checked the steering head bearings and wheel balance and finally pronounced they were stumped and they’d done all they could. So back home at my shop, I got the front wheel off the ground and placed a fixed pointer next to the wheel and turned it, it was dead straight. Then I moved the pointer next to the sidewall and whadya know? It had a deflection of about 1/8” . I called the dealer and they said they were done chasing that problem, they said to call Michelin. I did.....yeah, that was humorous. I got some corporate guy on the phone and he just dismissed me....Not possible he said.
Finally I said f*** it and put a set of Dunlop ME880s on there , paid for it myself. And the first time I took it out, I could take my hands off the bars at 50mph and it was rock steady all the way down to as slow as I could go. The shimmy was completely gone.
I finally got my money back, but not until I took it all the way up to Triumph corporate America HQ. I squawked until I reached someone with enough pull. I think he basically paid me to stop bothering him.

I had a "brand name" tire on the front of one of the XS's, came that way with about 4oz of weights on the rim. It shook anyways. I dismounted remounted and re balanced to no avail. I CUT it off the rim, good riddance,

 

[Mailman]

I had a "brand name" tire on the front of one of the XS's, came that way with about 4oz of weights on the rim. It shook anyways. I dismounted remounted and re balanced to no avail. I CUT it off the rim, good riddance,

By the way, I am by no means disparaging Metzler tires. I truly believe it was a fluke.

 

[GLJ]

I raced enduros in the late 70s and early 80s. Pentons and KTMs. Drum brakes front and back. After the first creek crossing the best brake you had was with your left foot.
On my street bikes I learned to apply both. The front is your best brake. The rear will help keep things going straight, if you are squeaking the front tire you need some rear brake to help keep things stabilized.

 

[MaxPete]

By the way, I am by no means disparaging Metzler tires. I truly believe it was a fluke.

Yup - I’ve had Metzlers on my ST1300 and they were fine. Way back in the ‘80s I had a set of Continentals on my GS850G and the front was baaaaddd - just proof that every company produces the odd turkey from time to time.